If there's something Wenatchee The Hatchet has discovered first-hand chronicling the life and times of the former Mars Hill Church it is how astonishingly variable, mercurial and pervasive link-rot is. When people presume to say, "People have no excuse not knowing what Mark Driscoll is like because they can look things up on the internet" the answer to that is, "Really? Can you? " Show me. From 2013 even through to the final months of Mars Hill Church massive information purges and robots.txt ensured that piles of stuff I documented could abruptly vanish from the internet the week after I quoted something Mark Driscoll said and then robots.txt ensured that not even The Wayback Machine could be used to go look up versions of it. If you read the rest of this post you'll even get to see there's a tag dedicated to robots.txt situations. But let's proceed to the article Alan Jacobs links to, okay?
Showing posts with label robots. Show all posts
Showing posts with label robots. Show all posts
Thursday, July 08, 2021
Thursday, July 01, 2021
Warren Throckmorton published a statement from former MHC pastor Andrew Lisi, whose departure from the U District campus was (sort of) documented here around March 2014 (now with better archive.org linkage)
Warren Throckmorton has published the following:
Andrew Lisi was involved at Mars Hill Church from December 2011 to March, 2014. During that time, he was an Executive Pastor, Community Groups Pastor and Biblical Living Pastor at three different campus churches (Downtown, U-District and West Seatte). When Andrew resigned, allegations of pastoral abuse and wrongdoing had started to surface against lead pastor Mark Driscoll.
Andrew recently reached out to me with a letter of concern he wrote to the Executive Elders of Mars Hill Church at the time of his resignation (Dave Bruskas, Sutton Turner, and Mark Driscoll). The letter expressed many of his reasons for leaving. He contacted me in response to the recent reports from former members of The Trinity Church in Phoenix. Andrew sees The Trinity Church reports as history repeating itself. He also hopes to raise awareness about the fact that the investigating board of elders at Mars Hill declared Mark Driscoll to be disqualified from ministry in 2014. Driscoll first agreed to undergo a restoration process but abruptly quit before he started it. ...
For those who want to read the full March 2, 2014 letter Andrew Lisi wrote, go here
Tuesday, May 18, 2021
on Mark Driscoll claiming to have a 30 year old English Standard Translation
Per protestia.com, the ESV was first published by Crossway in 2001, meaning it was impossible for Grace Martin to have gifted an ESV to Mark Driscoll 30 some years ago. It could have been a New American Standard Version, a Revised Standard Version or even the Common English Bible and that would have been possible. The ESV, however, didn't exist 30 years ago.
The Instagram status in question was date-stamped March 21, apparently this year. Whether it is still up and available or whether, as often happened with Mark Driscoll media material circa 2013-2014, it was de-published or purged would have to be verified by people who actually go to Instagram.
Nobody bothered, it seemed, to provide a hard-link to confirm that 1) the post was up or 2) whether the material may have been replicated elsewhere. Should you be curious about just how extensively Mars Hill church was using robots.txt to preclude people finding stuff from Driscoll's old sermons and media presence that might have made him come off badly there's actually a dedicated tag for that. There was a good stretch in 2013-2014 where I would chronicle things Driscoll said from the pulpit or on The Resurgence and stuff would just vanish.
So if Driscoll published the image of an ESV that was allegedly given him 30 years ago by Grace and the Instagram update has gone missing, well, there's some history to that pattern.
Driscoll's gone back to having facial hair ... which may be just as well because there was a stretch of time a few years ago where he went clean-shaven and maybe someone told him that at his current age he looks like Pat Robertson when he's clean-shaven. I wouldn't blame Driscoll for not wanting to look like Pat Robertson.
Thursday, June 16, 2016
a follow up on Resurgence as distinct from Resurgence Publishing Inc. Turner warned in March 2012 MH was in a financial mess, but by May 2012 Resurgence Publishing, Inc was set up and Mars Hill Music was announced as the new Christian music label gunning to take over Christian radio.
https://joyfulexiles.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/elders-response-to-questions-11-9-07.pdf
...
For me personally, everything culminated at the end of 2006. Despite rapid growth, the church was not healthy and neither was I. My workload was simply overwhelming. I was preaching five times a Sunday, the senior leader in Mars Hill responsible to some degree for literally everything in the church, president of the Acts 29 Church Planting Network which had exploded, president of The Resurgence, an author writing books, a conference speaker traveling, a media representative doing interviews, a student attending graduate school, a father with five young children, and a husband to a wife whom I have adored since the first day I met her and needed my focus more than ever. [emphases added] I was working far too many hours and neglecting my own physical and spiritual well-being, and then I hit the proverbial wall. For many weeks I simply could not sleep more than two or three hours a night. I had been running off of adrenaline for so many years that my adrenal glands fatigued and the stress of my responsibilities caused me to be stuck “on” physically and unable to rest or sleep. After a few months I had black circles under my eyes, was seeing a fog, and was constantly beyond exhausted.
so by Mark Driscoll's account he was president of The Resurgence, whatever that was, during 2006. He was blogging a bit in 2006 at The Resurgence. There's tagged posts of some of the stuff he had to say about Jenna Jameson, Adriana Lima and ... there was kind of a pattern going there for a while. There was something about Oprah, of course, and something sorta tangentially associated with Ted Haggard that wasn't really about Haggard so much as Driscoll soap-boxing.. It became apparent that if given the opportunity to regard women in the modeling industry as industrious marketing representatives in the advertising industry (a la Suzy Parker) or as dumb women who can't spell the word "contradiction" that Driscoll chose the latter option. But since Resurgence web pages seem to have been assimilated into Resurgence Publishing Inc. assets ...
http://www.store.theresurgence.com/
http://theresurgence.com/
http://theresurgence.com/authors/douglas-Wilson
Thank you for visiting the theresurgence.com.
Mark Driscoll Ministries recently purchased The Resurgence and all of its assets in a public auction conducted by a law firm. We are excited to reestablish this site, but it will be some time before we are able to catalogue and determine what will happen with the content. In the meantime, if you would like the latest information on The Resurgence and Pastor Mark Driscoll please visit http://markdriscoll.org. The site contains his latest Bible teaching, speaking calendar, and an option to sign up for weekly updates via the newsletter. You can also follow @pastormark on twitter.
It would seem that while for a time there weren't robots.txt for a lot of the Resurgence links robots.txt may be back.
The Resurgence has not always necessarily meant Resurgence Publishing, Inc. There has never been a UBI registered number for The Resurgence, so functionally it was essentially a subsidiary of Mars Hill. Resugence Publishing, Inc. is now inactive.
https://www.sos.wa.gov/corps/search_detail.aspx?ubi=603207560
RESURGENCE PUBLISHING, INC.
UBI Number 603207560
Category REG
Profit/Nonprofit Profit
Active/Inactive Inactive
State Of Incorporation WA
WA Filing Date 05/17/2012
Expiration Date 05/31/2015
Inactive Date 09/01/2015
Duration Perpetual
Agent Name CT CORPORATION SYSTEM
Address
505 UNION AVE SE STE 120
OLYMPIA WA 98501
President,Secretary,Treasurer,Chairman TURNER, JOHN 1411 NW 50TH ST
SEATTLE, WA 98107
It used to be the Resurgence had an online bookstore through which you could get books, some of them being books from the Re:Lit imprint that was mostly, if memory serves, published via Crossway.
For sake of review there was this Re:Lit line of books ...
Re:Lit Books by Crossway include
Community: Taking Your Small Group off Life Support by Brad House September 7 2011
Disciple by Bill Clem September 7, 2011
Note to Self by Joe Thorn
A Meal with Jesus by Tim Chester April 7, 2011
Redemption by Mike Wilkerson January 5, 2011
Rid of My Disgrace by Justin & Lindsey Holcomb January 5, 2011
Church Planter by Darrin Patrick August 12, 2010
Doctrine by Mark Driscoll September 1. 2011
Leaders Who Last by Dave Kraft February 3, 2010
Scandalous by D.A. Carson February 3, 2010
Religion Saves by Mark Driscoll June 5, 2009
Vintage Church by Mark Driscoll and Gerry Breshears December 23, 2008
Death by Love by Mark Driscoll and Gerry Breshears September 12, 2008
Total Church by Tim Chester and Steve Timmis August 21, 2008
Vintage Jesus by Mark Driscoll and Gerry Breshears February 11, 2008
http://www.wtsbooks.com/the-resurgence-literature-series-re-joe-thorn-relit16
Turner recently stated:
...
In the lawsuit, Jacobsens/Kildeas state that I financially benefited from the sales of the Real Marriage This is completely false. As stated previously, my role of President of Resurgence Publishing began after the publishing of Real Marriage. Resurgence Publishing was not financially or contractually linked to the publishing of Real Marriage. Furthermore, I was not involved in the legal entity (On Mission, LLC) that did financially benefit from Real Marriage
Perhaps a more basic question could be asked, whether or not Real Marriage was made available in any way through the Resurgence online bookstore. This would have been the easiest thing in the world to establish if robots.txt weren't in place and precluding the possibility of using something as simple as The WayBack Machine to prove that the book Real Marriage was never sold through the Resurgence online bookstore. For instance ... that James sermon series study guide was available at the old Resurgence online store, not that this link will work now.
http://store.theresurgence.com/products/james-study-guide
But that's neither here nor there.
What's peculiar about the filing date of Resurgence Publishing, Inc is that it was May 2012. That's a couple of months after a memo Sutton Turner wrote that addressed the financial mess Mars Hill was said to be in in early 2012. One of the comments in that memo was that the ReLit thing was not sustainable.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2014/09/10/sutton-turner-in-2012-on-mars-hill-churchs-financial-situation-we-are-in-a-big-mess/
http://wp.production.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/files/2014/09/Current-Financial-Situation-March-17-12.pdf
4. Mars Hill Music is not sustainable as currently operating.
5. ReLit is not sustainable as currently operating.
Whatever it was about Re:Lit that was not sustainable as currently operating is not clear. Since the Re:Lit line of books was done through Crossway it's not even clear how it could have been unsustainable for Mars Hill if Mars Hill wasn't even the party publishing the books. And if the Re:Lit line wasn't sustainable how was setting up Resurgence Publishing, Inc. going to make it sustainable? A libertarian might liken this situation to a government that decides that because the FBI failed to stop a catastrophe that a new department needs to be made to handle the situation, perhaps?
Whatever wasn't sustainable about the Re:Lit line of books that at one point had been published by Crossway, Resurgence Publishing, Inc. had a filing date of 5/17/2012. That's two months after that memo on the financial mess Mars Hill was in.
For that matter ...
http://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2014/08/a-history-of-mh-attempts-at-record_23.html
http://marshill.com/2012/05/02/were-starting-a-record-label-pastor-mark-interviews-jon-dunn
Head’s up: we’re starting a record label, and we’re gunning to take over Christian radio.
In May 2012 somebody announced Mars Hill was starting a music label and they were gunning to take over Christian radio. Whatever case was made for the Re:Lit line being unsustainable or the Mars Hill Music project being unsustainable.
One of the things Turner wrote in his March 17, 2012 memo was ...
http://wp.production.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/files/2014/09/Current-Financial-Situation-March-17-12.pdf
19. Doing anything that is not Making Disciples, Training Leaders and Planting Churches is not
sustainable.
So how did the announcement of a nascent music label and the filing for Resurgence Publishing, Inc. fit into making disciples, training leaders and planting churches in a sustainable way if the Re:Lit line of books was already in some sense not sustainable in its then-current form? Given that the fiscal year for Mars Hill was in the summer, the announcement of Mars Hill's music label and the creation of Resurgence Publishing, Inc. was within the fiscal year 2012 about which Turner had written that anything that wasn't primary mission needed to go.
But it can sure seem, looking back on things from 2016, that some stuff got started or announced anyway that had very little to do with the basic operations of Mars Hill. Turner wrote in 2015 that when leaders make decisions you don't agree with you go along with it. It's not inconceivable that somebody at Mars Hill's upper echelons of leadership was committed enough to keeping a book publishing project alive and a music label alive by dint of having cast those as part of the foundational vision from the dawn of Mars Hill that some form of those projects was expected to be kept on a back burner even if the front burner situation had changed. Or that's an educated guess.
POSTSCRIPT
For those who may not remember, May 2012 was also when Dave Bruskas told MH people there had to be rough layoffs that were non-negotiable a few days after the Driscolls bought a house in Woodway.
http://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2014/12/throckmorton-dave-bruskasmark-driscoll.html
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2014/12/06/dave-bruskas-and-mark-driscoll-to-mars-hill-church-elders-in-may-2012-we-really-need-your-help/
so a bunch of people got cut loose in the first half of 2012 in the wake of Sutton Turner's March 2012 memo ... and yet Resurgence Publishing Inc. got started and Mark Driscoll was happy to announce the start of a Mars Hill music label?
Of course Mars Hill Music circa 2012 became Mars Hill partnering with Tooth & Nail in 2013, so the music label thing was a bust again. But it does keep us coming back to a question of why, if Turner was correct in noting how risky the financial situation was for Mars Hill by March 2012, the executive leadership was okay with announcing a music label in May 2012, the same month that Resurgence Publishing, Inc. got started, the same month people got laid off and that Mark Driscoll got a house in Woodway. It seems hard to find a greater gap between institutional dread and personal ... optimism within the history of Mars Hill. A person could be forgiven for wondering if in some moments somebody in the leadership culture had a vision that was completely divorced from fiscal reality.
revisiting Turner's account of MH governance and its problems, it's hard to shake the impression that he bent over backwards to blame systems rather than the people that designed the systems in his 2015 posts
http://investyourgifts.com/mars-hill-rico-never-served/
Mars Hill RICO – Never Served
Yesterday, my attorney filed a motion to dismiss the case that was pending against me. Even though the Jacobsens and Kildeas (Plaintiffs) and Brian Fahling (Plaintiff’s attorney) filed a 42-page document with the court and conducted TV interviews, they never served me with the lawsuit.So effectively, we don’t have an active lawsuit because under Washington law they have 90 days to file, which has since passed.
- The sole purpose of filing the lawsuit was to disparage my character. The Jacobsens, Kildeas, and Brian Fahling acted in bad faith and the case should be dismissed with prejudice as a result of this bad faith. In addition, attorney fees and sanctions in the amount of $4,240.00 should be assessed.
It was never clear whether or not the RICO was ever going to move forward and though a few commenters here and there suggested it might be something to talk about or get behind it's only been something to discuss here when something gets discussed. So since Turner's brought up a few things it's back on the set of topics to discuss.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2016/06/15/sutton-turner-files-motion-to-dismiss-rico-lawsuit-against-him-and-mark-driscoll/
Throckmorton has a post up today, at which Turner has made a comment. One of the things that might be worth mentioning is that in Turner's account of Mars Hill governance it seems he concluded substantial changes to governance needed to be made.
It may be worthwhile to revisit things Turner has written about the history of Mars Hill from 2015:
http://investyourgifts.com/resultsource1/
Posted by Sutton Turner on
...
In April 2011, I joined Mars Hill as the General Manager and reported to the Executive Pastor. [emphasis added] I had enjoyed the teaching via podcast from overseas since 2007. My family and I looked forward to attending and serving in the church that we had enjoyed from afar, a church that loved Jesus and preached the gospel. I looked forward to using my gifts and experience to further the mission of Jesus through the local church.
When I arrived at Mars Hill, the financial books were a mess. During my first week, I asked the finance director to bring me the financials. He said he could provide me with September 2010 because they were about to close out the books for October. Financial reporting was six months behind. [emphasis added] I thought, “How do they know how they’re doing financially?!” The finance team handed me a bank statement. (If you are in finance or accounting, you just cringed as you read the last sentence.)
...
In July 2011, a new marketing proposal was already in the works at Mars Hill: ResultSource. I learned of the project from the manager who was overseeing it. ResultSource was a marketing practice that purchased books through small individual bookstores that would qualify the book for the New York Times Best Seller List. Then, these books would be shipped to Mars Hill and sold in our nine church bookstores. It was proposed that being listed on the New York Times Best Seller List would increase the awareness of the church, support the upcoming sermon series, and increase church size.
....
Shortly after the decision to execute the ResultSource marketing plan was made, my supervisor resigned. After him, I was the highest-ranking employee in administration. The decision had been made but the contract hadn’t yet been signed. On October 13, 2011, I signed the ResultSource contract as General Manager a full month before being installed as an Executive Elder. After signing the contract, I emailed an elder, stating my frustration with having to be the one to sign the contract when I had voiced my disagreement with it. [emphasis added] But few in the organization (or in the media since then) knew of my disagreement. When you stay in an organization and you do not agree with a decision, you have to own that decision as your own. Unfortunately, I will always be linked to ResultSource since my name was on the contract even though I thought it was a bad idea. If given the same opportunity again, I would not sign the ResultSource contract, but honestly, my missing signature would not have stopped it. Someone else would have signed it anyway since the decision had already been made.
I knew if I left Mars Hill, the likelihood of decisions like ResultSource would only continue. Through prayer and confidence that Jesus had called my family and me to Mars Hill Church, I decided to stay and change the decision-making process so that decisions like ResultSource would not be made again.
A few brief thoughts. Turner explained that basically Mars Hill was a fiscal trainwreck when he arrived on the scene in 2011. Since nobody has contested the reliability of this account and quite a few people have corroborated the account we'll have to take it as the semi-official account of Mars Hill financials from 2011.
The other thing to observe is that by Turner's account he was the highest ranking employee in administration after his supervisor resigned. The highest profile resignation in later 2011 was former Mars Hill president Pastor Jamie Munson. Since robots.txt is still in effect after all this time, we'll have to settle for WtH's preservation of the material over here:
http://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2015/01/wayback-machine-archive-of-jamie-munson.html
It would seem that although the Result Source contract that was signed had the intent of promoting a book by Mark and Grace Driscoll, it seems Mark Driscoll was not the highest-ranking employee in administration whose signature was required to make the deal a done deal. Turner seemed convinced in his 2015 statement that even if he had not signed the contract this would not have stopped ResultSource from having been used.
This has raised the question we asked back in 2015, who WOULD have signed it in Turner's absence? Turner's story simply raised again why that other person didn't sign it. Turner didn't address that, rather, he described how he decided to stay at Mars Hill and change the decision-making process so RSI would not be repeated.
Cumulatively this narrative could seem to throw Jamie Munson's reputation under the proverbial bus by way of explaining how Sutton Turner reasoned his way through to signing the Result Source contract. Munson was president of Mars Hill from 2007 to 2011, after all, so if Mars Hill governance came to be characterized by conflicts of interest systemic enough to merit a governance change
http://marshill.com/2014/03/07/a-note-from-our-board-of-advisors-accountability
By Board of Advisors & Accountability
March 7, 2014
...
Changes to GovernanceFor many years Mars Hill Church was led by a board of Elders, most of whom were in a vocational relationship with the church and thus not able to provide optimal objectivity. To eliminate conflicts of interest and set the church’s future on the best possible model of governance [emphasis added], a Board of Advisors and Accountability (BOAA) was established to set compensation, conduct performance reviews, approve the annual budget, and hold the newly formed Executive Elders accountable in all areas of local church leadership. This model is consistent with the best practices for governance established in the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability standards. Mars Hill Church joined and has been a member in good standing with the ECFA since September of 2012
It's tough to read that statement as saying something other than conceding that Mars Hill had a governance system from the 2007 to 2011 period that was characterized by insiders who were in the church culture who were not able to provide optimal objectivity. Further, you don't seek to eliminate conflicts of interest and set the church's future on the (course?) o fthe best possible model of governance if you think things were hunky dory. It's worth bearing in mind for those who read the whole timeline at Joyful Exiles that Meyer and Petry were terminated in connection to objections to the by-laws Munson reportedly drafted in 2007. If Munson drafted the 2007 bylaws (and that's not entirely clear since in a 2013 video Mark Driscoll said HE drafted those bylaws, apparently). So whether it was Jamie Munson or Mark Driscoll or some combination of the two seems less material than Sutton Turner's conclusion, apparently shared by the entire BoAA in 2014 (which did not include Munson by that point, obviously) that the MH governance as it existed by 2011 when he arrived was in need of dire revision.
What changes got made? Turner discussed that in his part 2.
http://investyourgifts.com/resultsource2/
... In my first months on staff at Mars Hill Church, the ResultSource contract was approved even though I had advised my direct supervisor against it. I don’t know who approved the plan. I don’t know what process was conducted concerning the decision, even after reviewing the board minutes for that time frame. [emphasis added] I do know that it showed that the process of making big decisions at Mars Hill was flawed and should be fixed.
...
In 2011, the Board of Directors was made up of men that were local church pastors within Mars Hill. I was not a board member at the time, so I do not know any of the specific deliberations on ResultSource. At the time, I did not care who was to blame for making the decision, and I don’t blame them now. (As you will see, the flawed governance structure contributed more to the situation than the individual decision-makers.) [emphasis added] Within weeks of the decision to use ResultSource, my supervisor had resigned. Within months, I was installed as Executive Elder (a position that would have allowed me to better voice my concerns on the ResultSource decision just months prior). At that point, the decision was done and in the past, but Mars Hill could certainly learn from it. My goal over the next few months was to restructure the decision-making process and the board that made those decisions.
..
When I looked at Mars Hill in the summer of 2011, many of its board members had limited large organization experience and that experience was solely at Mars Hill. Few had any business experience and some had no college education. [emphasis added] I do not comment on their background as a personal critique but to show that they needed outside help to enhance their experience and perspective.
This looks like smoke in mirrors in the end. Think about it this way, Turner said the problem was the decision-making process or the governance structure more than the individual decision-makers, if we've read this rightly. Okay ... well, who designed the governance? Depending on what accounts we consult it would seem from the cumulative documentation at the Joyful Exiles timeline, Jamie Munson was the prime mover/author of the bylaws that dealt with Mars Hill governance by the time Sutton Turner arrived. So if Munson was the primary architect behind a governance system that led to the flawed decision to contract with Result Source then Turner's potentially been too evasive as to who was responsible, even if indirectly in terms of the responsibility being that of whomever designed the procedural systems. Either Jamie Munson drafted the governance that led to what Turner considered to be a bad decision or Driscoll drafted the governance or Driscoll and Munson did so, but there's not a whole lot of room left to consider other parties at the moment. If Driscoll's "Stepping Up" video account is the authoritative one then none other than Mark Driscoll may have orchestrated the governance system that, by 2011, Turner concluded was problematic.
It's also difficult to escape the fact that by 2011 the majority of Jamie Munson's organizational experience was within Mars Hill. What's more, it's impossible to escape the fact that according to Mark Driscoll's account a decade ago in Confessions of a Reformission Rev, one of the most substantial moves to develop Mars Hill by way of purchasing what was once the 50th street corporate headquarters was Munson's idea. And since Munson's listed his formal education being graduating from Hellgate highschool
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jamiemunson
It would be hard to shake the impression that if we were to look at just one former Mars Hill leader who embodied the concerns Turner had about how the Mars Hill leadership culture was full of guys who had mainly intra-Mars Hill leadership experience and lacked formal collegiate education you can't get more obvious than Jamie Munson finding someone who fits "all of the above".
Back to Turner ...
But six months before the public spotlight, this new board of outside leaders, who were unassociated with the ResultSource decision, evaluated the proposal afterwards and made the right decision: it was a bad idea and it was wrong.
But in the end even one of the members of the BoAA concluded the BoAA itself was incapable of doing what it was intended to do, that would be Tripp. And as has been discussed at some length here elsewhere, one of the ironies of Turner's remodeled board was that it ended up being full of guys who had as much or more insider/advisory history within Mars Hill than perhaps even the board he'd replaced. But that's something to peruse at your leisure with help from blog posts tagged "boaa".
Part 3 ..
http://investyourgifts.com/resultsource3/
Part 3 was where Turner vented some steam about Tripp's critique of the BoAA being incapable by its very nature to achieve what it was supposed to achieve. Turner mentioned something:
... Early on, Mars Hill chose a path that every pastor was also a governing elder, which worked when the church was smaller. At that time, Mars Hill’s governance required plurality, or unanimous agreement, of all elders on any decision (there were no clear directions on what decision required plurality). Those early leaders had not thought Mars Hill would reach 14,000 in attendance. As it grew by God’s grace, more pastors were needed to shepherd the flock. Those pastors were also governing elders, which meant at one point, decisions required unanimous consent of over 20 elders. This also gave veto power to any one elder.
The problem is that you can go to the old pre-2007 bylaws and compare them to the 2007-2011 bylaws there was no need for unanimous agreement, a simple majority was considered sufficient. The 2007-2011 bylaws consolidated more formal power to the executive elder group, which was free to acquire real estate and contract without necessarily having to bring in the rest of the elder board. Turner's account attempted to pin the blame on bad decisions on a governance system but he skipped past the part where the guys who, by various accounts, had the largest roles in re-architecting the governance of Mars Hill toward this bad end, were the guys who worked for, basically. Driscoll's old jokes about plotting world domination with the co-founding partners who founded Mars Hill may be taken as pure jest but it still suggests the possibility that Turner may have been amiss in presuming that the early leaders had not thought Mars Hill would reach 14,000 in attendance. Driscoll was vision-casting a movement that would start a publishing house, a bible college, a music label and a church planting network even before Mars Hill had 400 people. That's been documented amply by the 2011 film God's Work, Our Witness.
To be nice about it, it often seems as if Turner spent time in 2015 trying to explain the history of a church culture that he may not really understand. For some more on some difficulties in Turner's account vis a vis people who were at Mars Hill before he ever showed up ....
http://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2015/04/turners-resultsource-3-is-up-church.html
One of the things that's still funny to me is that Turner seemed to think it was somehow weird of Tripp to advise local elder governance for Mars Hill campuses ... as if Turner had never come across a Presbyterian who would think like a Presbyterian about church polity ... but I digress.
Now it may well be Turner believes the suit was filed solely to discredit him ... but it's hard not to remember that when he posted away in 2015 he looked to this writer like he was stopping just short of throwing Munson's reputation under the bus and impugning the competence of the entire governing culture of Mars Hill circa 2011. And the problem with expressing reservations about the degree to which Mars Hill seemed to be run by elders who were insulated insiders with no real-world experience managing large organizations or businesses is that the higher up the organizational chart we go the more impossible it is to avoid considering that Jamie Munson had a high school education and apparently no more and that, as Mark Driscoll said on the road a few times, he'd never been a formal member, exactly, of any church he hadn't started himself. And, of course, by Driscoll's 2013 account as preserved for us by Throckmorton, for instance, Mark Driscoll claimed he was the one who had to go back and rewrite the bylaws and constitution of Mars Hill for the sake of his marriage. So if that's true then, well, it'd be impossible for Turner to have written all that he has written about the shortcomings of Mars Hill governance without saying that Mark Driscoll's governmental design was ultimately the core problem.
But then if that's the case that'd be something we could agree on, wouldn't it?
POSTSCRIPT
One of the things that's worth further investigation, if possible, is the mention of Resurgence Publishing. The thing is ... there was some kind of Resurgence back in 2008.
http://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2014/09/where-are-they-now-part-6c-driscoll.html
http://theresurgence.com/2008/10/04/interview-with-tim-smith
October 4, 2008
Pastor Mark Driscoll here from Mars Hill Church and President of The Resurgence with my good buddy, dear friend, and fellow elder at Mars Hill Tim Smith.
So there was a Resurgence of some sort, if not necessarily the publishing company (and there was the old defunct Resurgence Training Center, too). The thing worth noting is what Mark Driscoll said about himself, that he was President of the Resurgence in 2008, whatever it was, publishing company or now. So one of the questions we may want to ask and seek an answer for is whether that Resurgence circa 2008, whatever it was, has anything to do with Resurgence Publishing circa 2012.
POSTSCRIPT 2
06-16-2016
Having looked over the Washington State Secretary of State UBI search options, it turns out there was never a "Resurgence" UBI other than the publishing company, which strongly indicates a lot of what was known as The Resurgence was simply intra-Mars Hill differentiation, which will be the topic of a pending post.
Thursday, May 26, 2016
Mark Driscoll revisits the question of whether Christians can be demonized, answers affirmatively, which suggests he's still got the stance he laid out in his 2008 spiritual warfare seminar. (links/transcripts included)
Last week we discussed a bit about how Mark Driscoll fielded a question in a vodcast whether or not anorexia is a sin.
http://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2016/05/driscoll-vodcast-is-anorexia-sin-how-to.html
Then we got to part 2, in which it seemed necessary to point out that while Driscoll said in the vodcast something to the effect of "Satan, demons are lying to you ... " that Driscoll's previously shared teaching on the matter of the extent to which Satan would bother with you or me average nobody Christian is hard to pin down.
http://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2016/05/part-2-of-mark-driscoll-discussing.html
Well, it seems yesterday Driscoll decided to more directly field the old question of whether or not Christians can be demonized.
http://markdriscoll.org/can-christians-be-possessed-by-demons/
...
We believe Christians may be deceived, accused, or tempted by Satan and may yield to those attacks (though they do not have to). If believers begin to respond wrongly to such things, they may give demons influence in their lives. Apparently an evil spirit can empower, energize, encourage, and exploit a believer's own sinful desires. Examples would include Peter (Matt. 16:2-23) and Ananias (Acts 5:3). As children of God, regenerated and indwelt by the Spirit, we are responsible to and empowered by God to resist Satan, and if we do resist, we need not suffer from his influence (Eph 6:10-18); 1 Pet. 5:7-9; 1 John 4:1-4; 5:1, 18-19).
He revisited some material from Death By Love, that was co-authored with Gerry Breshears. But we've discussed this before. There's an as yet unanswered question as to how much of Death By Love Breshears wrote. Why? Because ... thanks to a screen capture and a link to an old Resurgence post preserved over here:
http://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2014/07/a-blast-from-past-resurgence-blog-post.html
http://www.theresurgence.com/md_blog_2006-09-19_its_always_something_at_mars_hill_church
[that link to theresurgence is not only dead but robots.txt still in effect]
It's Always Something at Mars Hill Church
Author: Mark Driscoll
POSTED ON: 09.19.06
..
We are still giving 10 percent of our money to help lead the Acts 29 Church Planting Network. I'm still writing a lot, including a book titled Death by Love on the subject of the cross that is nearing completion. [emphasis added] This week we did a free training about preaching for nearly a hundred pastors in our area and the guys ate a lot of meat for lunch. We captured my lecture on preaching and will vodcast it in chunks here on this site free of charge, as always, before too long. We've also upgraded our cameras to high-def so that the free stuff we do give away through Resurgence and Mars Hill will be as high quality as possible in an effort to help equip as many people around the world as possible on our dime.
So ... it looks as though back in September 2006 the book titled Death by Love was nearly complete and that Mark Driscoll was writing it himself. He might have been co-authoring the book with Breshears at the time but if he was there's not much said to that effect.
Nor has Driscoll mentioned much lately how much his ideas about how Christians can, in fact, be demonized, was explained at length in his 2008 spiritual warfare seminar. He discussed it some in Part 2, Christus Victor
http://download.marshill.se/files/MH%20Vodcast%20Video/2008/20080205_christus-victor_vodcast.m4v
06.19ish Second thing, what about Christians? Can Christians be demon possessed? Not in terms of ownership, no. You belong to God, right? You belong to God. Some would say, therefore, Satan doesn't work on Christians. Well, sure he does. He attacked Jesus. --say, "Yeah, well, he [Satan] can't internally influence them." Well, yeah, he can. Jesus looks at Peter and says, "Get behind me--" what? Satan. In Acts 5 there's a couple called Ananias and Sapphira. They were members of the church, believers, they were bringing their tithe after selling some land, and they withheld part of their alleged pledged tithe, and Peter looks at them and says "Why has Satan so filled your heart? You've not lied to men but to God the Holy Spirit." Why has Satan so filled your heart? Right at the center and core of who you are. Satan work's from THERE. [emphases added]The same language again in Ephesians, "Don't be drunk with wine, be FILLED with the Holy Spirit." Why are you FILLED in your heart with Satan? Christians can't be owned, possessed in terms of demons but they can be externally oppressed and (this will be my most controversial statement) internally influenced. Not possessed, not controlled. [emphasis added]
I'll use a very simple analogy, very controversial. There are huge books written warring over this. Some would argue, "Well, Satan can't have any access to a believer because God and Satan don't occupy the same space." I said, "Well they did in the days of Job when Satan was allowed to go into the presence of God." In me I have the flesh and my new nature. I have my depravity and the Holy Spirit. The world, God and Satan are at work there. Now God is greater, to be sure, and the only way I believe a believer is really opened up to the demonic is through sin and folly and lies and they open up themselves up. Are they possessed? NO. Are they internally influenced? Possibly. Possibly, for some.8:21
In the same way, okay, I'll give you an analogy. I own my house. It's my house. No one has any right to live there but let's say I just invite over some total losers (drug addicts, alcoholics, freeloaders, whatever) and I let `em eat my food, hang out, sleep on the couch, crash in the bedroom, I just let `em live there. I don't kick `em out, I don't do anything. Do they own the house? Do they possess the house? No. Do they have access to it? Well, yeah, I opened the door, I let `em in. Are they gonna create havoc in my house? Yeah, they're gonna ruin everything. So what do I need to do? I need to kick `em out because they have no right to be there and then I need to lock the door and not invite `em in ever again. I'm saying in that simple analogy that's kinda how Satan and demons work. If you open up your life, and this is not, not, you know, you had a bad day and said a bad word, this is a Christian who all of a sudden you're into the demonic; you're sick and you want to be healed so you go to some healer and now you're involved in demons; there's sin in your life that you've never really dealt with, that kind of stuff. You're doing drugs, you're opening yourself up to an altered state of conscioucesness (the Bible says to be self-controlled and alert and resist the devil and not you're not doing that cuz you're into drugs and alcohol and bizarre spirituality). You can open the door, bad guys move in, they don't OWN the house, you can kick `em out, lock the door. That's my description of internal influence. It's in very extreme cases and this isn't very often but it's possible.
One of the things that has never been addressed that I think is important to bring back into discussion, since Driscoll seems determined to keep mining theological ideas from his Mars Hill era in such a selective way, is that nobody seems to have asked whether Mark Driscoll could potentially have become demonized within the taxonomy of his own ideas about how demonic footholds occur.
Take the beginning of "the ordinary demonic" from his 2008 session, not enough sex in marriage.
http://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2014/11/2-5-2008-spiritual-warfare-part-2-part_18.html
http://download.marshill.se/files/MH%20Vodcast%20Video/2008/20080205_the-devil_vodcast.m4v
10:23
How many of you would think that a couple that doesn't have enough sex is experiencing demonic spiritual warfare? It's true. How many Christian marriages divorce? Well, statistically, more than those who are not Christian. When non-Christians can work it out a rate that is more successful than Christians that would indicate to me that Satan has really found a way to climb into bed between a husband and a wife and, in one way or another, cause devastation.
When I'm meeting with a couple and one of them, maybe it's the husband, says, "Well, my wife's not being very nice to me so I'm gonna deny her sex and until she's nice to me I'm gonna withhold it." That's demonic. ...
To be sure, there are sex addicts in marriage who are unreasonable in their expectations of their spouse but what I'm talking about is the common situation where one person in the marriage wants to be intimate more often than the other and they're rejected, they become bitter, Satan comes in and feeds that bitterness, baits the hook of their flesh with the temptation of the world, and all of a sudden Satan puts in front of them images and people and opportunities to lead them astray and to destroy everything.
Driscoll, almost notoriously, lamented the lack of sex in his marriage as a point over which he became bitter, which is actually another element of what Driscoll described as "the ordinary demonic". It seemed pertinent to ask whether with half a decade or more of "not enough sex in marriage' by Mark Driscoll's account and his bitterness about it whether or not that collectively could have been a demonic foothold in Mark Driscoll's life.
http://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2014/12/2-5-2008-spiritual-warfare-part-3-part_63.html
That got discussed somewhat briefly there. Here is where we posed the question of how, if Mark was so bitter, nobody in the leadership scene at the Board level seemed to notice it.
http://marshill.com/media/1-timothy/1-timothy-3-1-7
http://download.marshill.se/files/2004/02/08/20040208_1-timothy-3-1-7_sd_audio.mp3
Part 6:1 Timothy 3:1-7
Preached February 08, 2004
... I love my wife. I've been totally faithful to her. I'm a one-woman man. I met her at 17. I married her at 21. I've been chasing her ever since. I'm quicker than she is, so I'm happily married. You know, things are good. I just am. I love my wife. I adore my wife. I enjoy my wife, you know? ...
Thanks to the narrative in Real Marriage, we now know that basically a decade's worth of Mark Driscoll's life in ministry seemed to be full of bitterness and resentment about the lack of sex he was getting from his wife. Between those two points, not enough sex in marriage and bitterness about it, it doesn't seem unreasonable, by dint of Mark Driscoll's own history of teaching about the ways Christians can open up demonic footholds, whether Mark Driscoll himself could fit as having been to some degree demonized.
Grace Driscoll (assuming for the sake of conversation she actually wrote a word of Real Marriage that her name is attached to, which I sometimes doubt now), said that Mark seemed to view sex as a god. Mark Driscoll himself described himself as having tended to see sex as a god. At some length we revisited potential evidence for the past-tense, with an open ended question about when, if ever, sex stopped being a god for Mark Driscoll.
http://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2014/07/sex-as-god-gross-or-gift-mark-driscoll.html
Now Driscoll was emphatic that bitterness is what is in your heart that gets brought out by troubles. Nobody makes you bitter, you are bitter.
http://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2014/11/2-5-2008-spiritual-warfare-part-3-part_26.html
http://download.marshill.se/files/MH%20Vodcast%20Video/2008/20080205_the-devil_vodcast.m4v
about 45:00
What he says is, if you're a Christian and God, through Jesus Christ, is not bitter with you but forgives you then you must use the Gospel in your relationships to forgive other people. You have no reason to be bitter with them. In being bitter with them what you are saying is, "I refuse to use the Gospel for my relationships. I refuse to allow Jesus to do anything." And when you say that you ARE saying, "I am inviting Satan instead."We began this whole discussion saying "Do not give the Devil a foothold." Bitterness gives him a foothold and it leads to death and destruction. How many of you are truly bitter against God because you don't have the spiritual office, authority, power, income that you want? Things aren't going the way that YOU want. The spouse that you wanted you didn't get. The spouse you thought you were getting ISN'T the way they appear. The sex, the children, the money, the power, the health, the appearance that YOU wanted but you didn't get so, deep down, you're really unhappy with God, you feel like He kinda let you down. That's bitterness.
Okay, so if we run with this, and if we consider that Mark Driscoll described himself as being bitter for years against his wife on the issue of sex and described both "not enough sex in marriage" and bitterness as demonic footholds, how could Mark Driscoll or those who support him not concede that it was at least possible that within Mark Driscoll's own understanding and teaching about Christians and demonization he could very well have become demonized? By 2008 Mark Driscoll had formulated some kind of case to Grace Driscoll that the cure for his mood swings and depression was more frequent sex so perhaps all this was the sort of teaching that could be presented with the lack-of-sex years safely behind him.
If Mark Driscoll had made sex into a god and his self-prescribed cure for his mood swings and depression was more sex ... how did Mark Driscoll repent of making sex a god, exactly? By convincing his wife to have sex with him more? Now a secularist or simply any Christian who doesn't agree with every point made by Mark Driscoll about spiritual warfare could propose that there may have been other explanations besides demons at play but Driscoll's teaching doesn't exactly leave a lot of room open for those avenues. That was one of a few things I disagreed with during my time at Mars Hill, the propensity within the leadership culture to only define sin in active and conscious terms rather than concede that many sins are inadvertent and motivated by something besides pride.
Since Driscoll seems determined to keep recycling his old content without necessarily making all of the old content available in its original, earlier form (most notably the 2008 spiritual warfare seminar) it seems necessary to revisit the material and help people get a clearer sense of how much recycled content Mark Driscoll's working from these days. For those of us who called Mars Hill home ten years ago he had sermons where he warned against us putting too much stock in guys who do their sermons, pull up stakes and leave, and then start over somewhere else recycling their greatest hits.
http://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2016/05/driscoll-vodcast-is-anorexia-sin-how-to.html
Then we got to part 2, in which it seemed necessary to point out that while Driscoll said in the vodcast something to the effect of "Satan, demons are lying to you ... " that Driscoll's previously shared teaching on the matter of the extent to which Satan would bother with you or me average nobody Christian is hard to pin down.
http://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2016/05/part-2-of-mark-driscoll-discussing.html
Well, it seems yesterday Driscoll decided to more directly field the old question of whether or not Christians can be demonized.
http://markdriscoll.org/can-christians-be-possessed-by-demons/
...
We believe Christians may be deceived, accused, or tempted by Satan and may yield to those attacks (though they do not have to). If believers begin to respond wrongly to such things, they may give demons influence in their lives. Apparently an evil spirit can empower, energize, encourage, and exploit a believer's own sinful desires. Examples would include Peter (Matt. 16:2-23) and Ananias (Acts 5:3). As children of God, regenerated and indwelt by the Spirit, we are responsible to and empowered by God to resist Satan, and if we do resist, we need not suffer from his influence (Eph 6:10-18); 1 Pet. 5:7-9; 1 John 4:1-4; 5:1, 18-19).
He revisited some material from Death By Love, that was co-authored with Gerry Breshears. But we've discussed this before. There's an as yet unanswered question as to how much of Death By Love Breshears wrote. Why? Because ... thanks to a screen capture and a link to an old Resurgence post preserved over here:
http://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2014/07/a-blast-from-past-resurgence-blog-post.html
http://www.theresurgence.com/md_blog_2006-09-19_its_always_something_at_mars_hill_church
[that link to theresurgence is not only dead but robots.txt still in effect]
It's Always Something at Mars Hill Church
Author: Mark Driscoll
POSTED ON: 09.19.06
..
We are still giving 10 percent of our money to help lead the Acts 29 Church Planting Network. I'm still writing a lot, including a book titled Death by Love on the subject of the cross that is nearing completion. [emphasis added] This week we did a free training about preaching for nearly a hundred pastors in our area and the guys ate a lot of meat for lunch. We captured my lecture on preaching and will vodcast it in chunks here on this site free of charge, as always, before too long. We've also upgraded our cameras to high-def so that the free stuff we do give away through Resurgence and Mars Hill will be as high quality as possible in an effort to help equip as many people around the world as possible on our dime.
So ... it looks as though back in September 2006 the book titled Death by Love was nearly complete and that Mark Driscoll was writing it himself. He might have been co-authoring the book with Breshears at the time but if he was there's not much said to that effect.
Nor has Driscoll mentioned much lately how much his ideas about how Christians can, in fact, be demonized, was explained at length in his 2008 spiritual warfare seminar. He discussed it some in Part 2, Christus Victor
http://download.marshill.se/files/MH%20Vodcast%20Video/2008/20080205_christus-victor_vodcast.m4v
06.19ish Second thing, what about Christians? Can Christians be demon possessed? Not in terms of ownership, no. You belong to God, right? You belong to God. Some would say, therefore, Satan doesn't work on Christians. Well, sure he does. He attacked Jesus. --say, "Yeah, well, he [Satan] can't internally influence them." Well, yeah, he can. Jesus looks at Peter and says, "Get behind me--" what? Satan. In Acts 5 there's a couple called Ananias and Sapphira. They were members of the church, believers, they were bringing their tithe after selling some land, and they withheld part of their alleged pledged tithe, and Peter looks at them and says "Why has Satan so filled your heart? You've not lied to men but to God the Holy Spirit." Why has Satan so filled your heart? Right at the center and core of who you are. Satan work's from THERE. [emphases added]The same language again in Ephesians, "Don't be drunk with wine, be FILLED with the Holy Spirit." Why are you FILLED in your heart with Satan? Christians can't be owned, possessed in terms of demons but they can be externally oppressed and (this will be my most controversial statement) internally influenced. Not possessed, not controlled. [emphasis added]
I'll use a very simple analogy, very controversial. There are huge books written warring over this. Some would argue, "Well, Satan can't have any access to a believer because God and Satan don't occupy the same space." I said, "Well they did in the days of Job when Satan was allowed to go into the presence of God." In me I have the flesh and my new nature. I have my depravity and the Holy Spirit. The world, God and Satan are at work there. Now God is greater, to be sure, and the only way I believe a believer is really opened up to the demonic is through sin and folly and lies and they open up themselves up. Are they possessed? NO. Are they internally influenced? Possibly. Possibly, for some.8:21
In the same way, okay, I'll give you an analogy. I own my house. It's my house. No one has any right to live there but let's say I just invite over some total losers (drug addicts, alcoholics, freeloaders, whatever) and I let `em eat my food, hang out, sleep on the couch, crash in the bedroom, I just let `em live there. I don't kick `em out, I don't do anything. Do they own the house? Do they possess the house? No. Do they have access to it? Well, yeah, I opened the door, I let `em in. Are they gonna create havoc in my house? Yeah, they're gonna ruin everything. So what do I need to do? I need to kick `em out because they have no right to be there and then I need to lock the door and not invite `em in ever again. I'm saying in that simple analogy that's kinda how Satan and demons work. If you open up your life, and this is not, not, you know, you had a bad day and said a bad word, this is a Christian who all of a sudden you're into the demonic; you're sick and you want to be healed so you go to some healer and now you're involved in demons; there's sin in your life that you've never really dealt with, that kind of stuff. You're doing drugs, you're opening yourself up to an altered state of conscioucesness (the Bible says to be self-controlled and alert and resist the devil and not you're not doing that cuz you're into drugs and alcohol and bizarre spirituality). You can open the door, bad guys move in, they don't OWN the house, you can kick `em out, lock the door. That's my description of internal influence. It's in very extreme cases and this isn't very often but it's possible.
One of the things that has never been addressed that I think is important to bring back into discussion, since Driscoll seems determined to keep mining theological ideas from his Mars Hill era in such a selective way, is that nobody seems to have asked whether Mark Driscoll could potentially have become demonized within the taxonomy of his own ideas about how demonic footholds occur.
Take the beginning of "the ordinary demonic" from his 2008 session, not enough sex in marriage.
http://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2014/11/2-5-2008-spiritual-warfare-part-2-part_18.html
http://download.marshill.se/files/MH%20Vodcast%20Video/2008/20080205_the-devil_vodcast.m4v
10:23
How many of you would think that a couple that doesn't have enough sex is experiencing demonic spiritual warfare? It's true. How many Christian marriages divorce? Well, statistically, more than those who are not Christian. When non-Christians can work it out a rate that is more successful than Christians that would indicate to me that Satan has really found a way to climb into bed between a husband and a wife and, in one way or another, cause devastation.
When I'm meeting with a couple and one of them, maybe it's the husband, says, "Well, my wife's not being very nice to me so I'm gonna deny her sex and until she's nice to me I'm gonna withhold it." That's demonic. ...
To be sure, there are sex addicts in marriage who are unreasonable in their expectations of their spouse but what I'm talking about is the common situation where one person in the marriage wants to be intimate more often than the other and they're rejected, they become bitter, Satan comes in and feeds that bitterness, baits the hook of their flesh with the temptation of the world, and all of a sudden Satan puts in front of them images and people and opportunities to lead them astray and to destroy everything.
Driscoll, almost notoriously, lamented the lack of sex in his marriage as a point over which he became bitter, which is actually another element of what Driscoll described as "the ordinary demonic". It seemed pertinent to ask whether with half a decade or more of "not enough sex in marriage' by Mark Driscoll's account and his bitterness about it whether or not that collectively could have been a demonic foothold in Mark Driscoll's life.
http://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2014/12/2-5-2008-spiritual-warfare-part-3-part_63.html
That got discussed somewhat briefly there. Here is where we posed the question of how, if Mark was so bitter, nobody in the leadership scene at the Board level seemed to notice it.
http://marshill.com/media/1-timothy/1-timothy-3-1-7
http://download.marshill.se/files/2004/02/08/20040208_1-timothy-3-1-7_sd_audio.mp3
Part 6:1 Timothy 3:1-7
Preached February 08, 2004
... I love my wife. I've been totally faithful to her. I'm a one-woman man. I met her at 17. I married her at 21. I've been chasing her ever since. I'm quicker than she is, so I'm happily married. You know, things are good. I just am. I love my wife. I adore my wife. I enjoy my wife, you know? ...
Thanks to the narrative in Real Marriage, we now know that basically a decade's worth of Mark Driscoll's life in ministry seemed to be full of bitterness and resentment about the lack of sex he was getting from his wife. Between those two points, not enough sex in marriage and bitterness about it, it doesn't seem unreasonable, by dint of Mark Driscoll's own history of teaching about the ways Christians can open up demonic footholds, whether Mark Driscoll himself could fit as having been to some degree demonized.
Grace Driscoll (assuming for the sake of conversation she actually wrote a word of Real Marriage that her name is attached to, which I sometimes doubt now), said that Mark seemed to view sex as a god. Mark Driscoll himself described himself as having tended to see sex as a god. At some length we revisited potential evidence for the past-tense, with an open ended question about when, if ever, sex stopped being a god for Mark Driscoll.
http://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2014/07/sex-as-god-gross-or-gift-mark-driscoll.html
Now Driscoll was emphatic that bitterness is what is in your heart that gets brought out by troubles. Nobody makes you bitter, you are bitter.
http://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2014/11/2-5-2008-spiritual-warfare-part-3-part_26.html
http://download.marshill.se/files/MH%20Vodcast%20Video/2008/20080205_the-devil_vodcast.m4v
about 45:00
What he says is, if you're a Christian and God, through Jesus Christ, is not bitter with you but forgives you then you must use the Gospel in your relationships to forgive other people. You have no reason to be bitter with them. In being bitter with them what you are saying is, "I refuse to use the Gospel for my relationships. I refuse to allow Jesus to do anything." And when you say that you ARE saying, "I am inviting Satan instead."We began this whole discussion saying "Do not give the Devil a foothold." Bitterness gives him a foothold and it leads to death and destruction. How many of you are truly bitter against God because you don't have the spiritual office, authority, power, income that you want? Things aren't going the way that YOU want. The spouse that you wanted you didn't get. The spouse you thought you were getting ISN'T the way they appear. The sex, the children, the money, the power, the health, the appearance that YOU wanted but you didn't get so, deep down, you're really unhappy with God, you feel like He kinda let you down. That's bitterness.
Okay, so if we run with this, and if we consider that Mark Driscoll described himself as being bitter for years against his wife on the issue of sex and described both "not enough sex in marriage" and bitterness as demonic footholds, how could Mark Driscoll or those who support him not concede that it was at least possible that within Mark Driscoll's own understanding and teaching about Christians and demonization he could very well have become demonized? By 2008 Mark Driscoll had formulated some kind of case to Grace Driscoll that the cure for his mood swings and depression was more frequent sex so perhaps all this was the sort of teaching that could be presented with the lack-of-sex years safely behind him.
If Mark Driscoll had made sex into a god and his self-prescribed cure for his mood swings and depression was more sex ... how did Mark Driscoll repent of making sex a god, exactly? By convincing his wife to have sex with him more? Now a secularist or simply any Christian who doesn't agree with every point made by Mark Driscoll about spiritual warfare could propose that there may have been other explanations besides demons at play but Driscoll's teaching doesn't exactly leave a lot of room open for those avenues. That was one of a few things I disagreed with during my time at Mars Hill, the propensity within the leadership culture to only define sin in active and conscious terms rather than concede that many sins are inadvertent and motivated by something besides pride.
Since Driscoll seems determined to keep recycling his old content without necessarily making all of the old content available in its original, earlier form (most notably the 2008 spiritual warfare seminar) it seems necessary to revisit the material and help people get a clearer sense of how much recycled content Mark Driscoll's working from these days. For those of us who called Mars Hill home ten years ago he had sermons where he warned against us putting too much stock in guys who do their sermons, pull up stakes and leave, and then start over somewhere else recycling their greatest hits.
Tuesday, March 24, 2015
Wednesday, March 04, 2015
The Faults in Our Stars featuring some ... interesting explanations for the resignation of Mark Driscoll
http://www.relevantmagazine.com/god/church/faults-our-stars
In addition to quotes from a Gerry Breshears authoritatively describing his relationship with Mark Driscoll in the past tense, we get to read him explain that Driscoll was arrogant. Considering that Breshears co-wrote four books with Driscoll would somebody who's formally in the press ask Breshears how Death By Love managed to end up being co-authored by the two of them when by Mark Driscoll's account he had mostly finished that book by 2006?
Driscoll mentioned that it was co-authored in his February 2008 spiritual warfare teaching seminar.
http://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2015/01/2-5-2008-spiritual-warfare-part-3-part_53.html
but ...
http://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2014/07/a-blast-from-past-resurgence-blog-post.html
in September 2006 Driscoll mentioned mainly being done with the book that came to be known as Death By Love. The Relevant magazine article didn't single out that book for some reason but the nature and extent of Breshears' co-authoring relationship with Mark Driscoll would seem to warrant further interview questions since those co-authored works constitute Breshears' only significant published work since the dawn of the millennium. For a bit more on that, over here:
http://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2014/01/heidelblogs-on-driscollbreshears.html
A number of theories are proposed in the Ruth Moon piece, a couple of which are interesting. That branding and media were a strength gets noted. Wenatchee The Hatchet thinks it could be stated more forcefully that Mars Hill and Mark Driscoll had an Achilles heel in social and broadcast media immersion. What this meant was the sheer tonnage of statements put out there became easier to collate, cross-reference, and examine for what turned out to be some startling ... continuity errors.
More significantly, in its commitment to sustaining meteoric growth Mars Hill committed to an informational infrastructure that couldn't possibly keep up with the numbers it was assimilating. The reason that matters can be explained after we get to a not-quite-passing reference to a theory proposed in the article by William Vanderbloemen, that Mark Driscoll resigned in response to, not some scandal about possible misappropriation of money or a sexual transgression but ... a steady stream of criticism from popular bloggers ... ?
Seriously?
Let's go back to 2012 and see how Driscoll tended to publicly discuss "bloggers". Since the pertinent page probably can't be found where it first appeared; since said materials can't be dredged up by the Wayback Machine due to robots.txt; and since the post in question somehow didn't migrate over to markdriscoll.org ... it seems that Wenatchee The Hatchet will have to rely on having previously documented and discussed some Driscoll material, again.
http://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2012/04/mark-driscoll-shows-us-hat-but-does-not.html
http://pastormark.tv/2012/04/16/an-official-response-to-the-kerfuffle-at-liberty-university
The trouble started with a Southern Baptist blogger . . . yes, you should have seen that one coming. Now, to be fair, the blogger quoted an anonymous “source.” And, we all know that almost everything bloggers say is true. But, when they have something as solid as an anonymous “source,” then you can rest assured that when Jesus talked about the truth over and over in John, this is precisely what he was referring to. I have a degree from Washington State’s Edward R. Murrow College of Communication and worked professionally as a journalist, and I can assure you that The Kerfuffle is a very serious matter to be taken with the utmost sobriety and propriety. In fact, one anonymous “source” I spoke to said that Watergate pales in comparison.
Perhaps we can cross reference another, ahem, blogger here:
http://fromlaw2grace.com/2012/04/17/driscoll-the-lu-kerfuffle-failure-to-communicate/
But, to give him the benefit of the doubt, perhaps he was poorly briefed about “The Kerfuffle” by his community relations manager:
As for that blogger? This seems to be his response to the Driscoll response.
And here's some coverage from the time
http://m.christianpost.com/news/mark-driscoll-pokes-fun-at-liberty-university-kerfuffle-73331/
Now it's possible Driscoll found it useful to be at the center of a controversy connected to a blogger, but there's nothing in any of the above material that suggests Mark Driscoll was someone who was swift to take bloggers or things they said seriously. So what would Vanderbloemen suggest popular bloggers could have published that would have mattered to someone like Mark Driscoll? If someone like William Vanderbloemen were to suggest Mark Driscoll's late 2014 resignation could have anything at all to do with popular bloggers (never mind what "popular" might be or which bloggers) this would still seem to fly in the face of some direct statements on Driscoll's part that suggest the LAST thing he'd do is resign of materials published by any bloggers, popular or otherwise.
Perhaps things Vanderbloemen said at the end of 2014 could illuminate things?
http://www.theblaze.com/
Driscoll‘s recent resignation from the church he founded was followed by another shocking announcement: Mars Hill is dissolving by year’s end, with its 11 congregations becoming independent houses of worship.
And Vanderbloemen said that the stunning situation carries with it a plethora of lessons to be learned. “Mark stepped down at his own choice, but it wasn’t without a lot of pressure,” he said. “Mark’s departure didn’t contain any of the normal elements of a scandal.”
There wasn’t an extramarital affair nor any other explosive singular event that contributed to his downfall, he argued, calling Driscoll a “brilliant communicator.
“I’ve never seen anything quite like this,” Vanderbloemen said, noting that Driscoll ended up leaving over a wide variety of smaller infractions and debates that were perpetuated on the Internet. “We have seen a lot of guys have to leave, but never from the death of a thousand cuts that happened online.”
He continued, “There was a weird sort of perfect storm of critics and disorganization.”
In the end, Vanderbloemen said that Mars Hill grew very fast and simply wasn’t prepared for the level of expansion it experienced. As an anecdotal result, he said that churches need to do what businesses have done, drafting plans in preparation for uncertainty.
Pressure? From where?
But Vanderbloemen doesn't seem to have camped too much on whether or not a wide variety of smaller infractions revolved around any themes. How about plagiarism? Consult Warren Throckmorton's blog, or maybe a post or two in which Wenatchee The Hatchet raised a question of whether Dan Allender's work was adequately acknowledged in the first edition of Real Marriage.
Speaking of that book ... wasn't it pretty much a year ago that World Magazine's Warren Cole Smith broke a story about the use of Result Source by Mars Hill to secure a #1 spot on the NYT bestseller list for that book?
http://www.worldmag.com/2014/03/unreal_sales_for_driscoll_s_real_marriage
So between the plagiarism controversy and the controversy surrounding Result Source, both of which featured Real Marriage, what would be the basis for Mark Driscoll's resignation to have been catalyzed by .... popular bloggers? Wouldn't it seem more likely that the double-whammy of being confronted by Janet Mefferd on air about plagiarism and then having it revealed by World Magazine sales were rigged for one of Driscoll's books seem like bigger deals than bloggers?
Driscoll's resignation statement didn't seem to give any indication bloggers had anything to do with his decision. You can go read the whole thing if you want. Here's the pertinent pair of paragraphs
http://www.religionnews.com/?p=109053
... Prior to and during this process there have been no charges of criminal activity, immorality or heresy, any of which could clearly be grounds for disqualification from pastoral ministry. Other issues, such as aspects of my personality and leadership style, have proven to be divisive within the Mars Hill context, and I do not want to be the source of anything that might detract from our church’s mission to lead people to a personal and growing relationship with Jesus Christ.That is why, after seeking the face and will of God, and seeking godly counsel from men and women across the country, we have concluded it would be best for the health of our family, and for the Mars Hill family, that we step aside from further ministry at the church we helped launch in 1996. I will gladly work with you in the coming days on any details related to our separation
This does not sound like someone who was saying popular bloggers had anything to do with his decision, does it?
Is it possible Ruth Moon misunderstood what Vanderbloemen said? For that matter, would anyone associated with the Driscoll family be willing to clarify whether or not William Vanderbloemen was given any permission to make statements to any effect about the reason for Mark Driscoll's resignation? That seems to Wenatchee The Hatchet something for which Driscolls could understandably break social media silence, especially if there needs to be any statement that would set the record straight about what has lately been recounted in an article in Relevant magazine.
In addition to quotes from a Gerry Breshears authoritatively describing his relationship with Mark Driscoll in the past tense, we get to read him explain that Driscoll was arrogant. Considering that Breshears co-wrote four books with Driscoll would somebody who's formally in the press ask Breshears how Death By Love managed to end up being co-authored by the two of them when by Mark Driscoll's account he had mostly finished that book by 2006?
Driscoll mentioned that it was co-authored in his February 2008 spiritual warfare teaching seminar.
http://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2015/01/2-5-2008-spiritual-warfare-part-3-part_53.html
but ...
http://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2014/07/a-blast-from-past-resurgence-blog-post.html
in September 2006 Driscoll mentioned mainly being done with the book that came to be known as Death By Love. The Relevant magazine article didn't single out that book for some reason but the nature and extent of Breshears' co-authoring relationship with Mark Driscoll would seem to warrant further interview questions since those co-authored works constitute Breshears' only significant published work since the dawn of the millennium. For a bit more on that, over here:
http://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2014/01/heidelblogs-on-driscollbreshears.html
A number of theories are proposed in the Ruth Moon piece, a couple of which are interesting. That branding and media were a strength gets noted. Wenatchee The Hatchet thinks it could be stated more forcefully that Mars Hill and Mark Driscoll had an Achilles heel in social and broadcast media immersion. What this meant was the sheer tonnage of statements put out there became easier to collate, cross-reference, and examine for what turned out to be some startling ... continuity errors.
More significantly, in its commitment to sustaining meteoric growth Mars Hill committed to an informational infrastructure that couldn't possibly keep up with the numbers it was assimilating. The reason that matters can be explained after we get to a not-quite-passing reference to a theory proposed in the article by William Vanderbloemen, that Mark Driscoll resigned in response to, not some scandal about possible misappropriation of money or a sexual transgression but ... a steady stream of criticism from popular bloggers ... ?
Seriously?
Let's go back to 2012 and see how Driscoll tended to publicly discuss "bloggers". Since the pertinent page probably can't be found where it first appeared; since said materials can't be dredged up by the Wayback Machine due to robots.txt; and since the post in question somehow didn't migrate over to markdriscoll.org ... it seems that Wenatchee The Hatchet will have to rely on having previously documented and discussed some Driscoll material, again.
http://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2012/04/mark-driscoll-shows-us-hat-but-does-not.html
http://pastormark.tv/2012/04/16/an-official-response-to-the-kerfuffle-at-liberty-university
The trouble started with a Southern Baptist blogger . . . yes, you should have seen that one coming. Now, to be fair, the blogger quoted an anonymous “source.” And, we all know that almost everything bloggers say is true. But, when they have something as solid as an anonymous “source,” then you can rest assured that when Jesus talked about the truth over and over in John, this is precisely what he was referring to. I have a degree from Washington State’s Edward R. Murrow College of Communication and worked professionally as a journalist, and I can assure you that The Kerfuffle is a very serious matter to be taken with the utmost sobriety and propriety. In fact, one anonymous “source” I spoke to said that Watergate pales in comparison.
Perhaps we can cross reference another, ahem, blogger here:
http://fromlaw2grace.com/2012/04/17/driscoll-the-lu-kerfuffle-failure-to-communicate/
But, to give him the benefit of the doubt, perhaps he was poorly briefed about “The Kerfuffle” by his community relations manager:
“So, I asked our community relations manager, who gets to enjoy reading blogs about me while eating breakfast every day (it’s amazing he holds anything down), to give me a summary of this kerfuffle.” (An Official Response to The Kerfuffle at Liberty University)So by Driscoll's account, admittedly quoted second-hand of necessity, not only did Driscoll not seem to take the blogger of that moment seriously, he also seems to have summarized that he consulted his community relations manager to summarize "this kerfuffle". That would seem to have been ... Justin Dean?
As for that blogger? This seems to be his response to the Driscoll response.
And here's some coverage from the time
http://m.christianpost.com/news/mark-driscoll-pokes-fun-at-liberty-university-kerfuffle-73331/
Now it's possible Driscoll found it useful to be at the center of a controversy connected to a blogger, but there's nothing in any of the above material that suggests Mark Driscoll was someone who was swift to take bloggers or things they said seriously. So what would Vanderbloemen suggest popular bloggers could have published that would have mattered to someone like Mark Driscoll? If someone like William Vanderbloemen were to suggest Mark Driscoll's late 2014 resignation could have anything at all to do with popular bloggers (never mind what "popular" might be or which bloggers) this would still seem to fly in the face of some direct statements on Driscoll's part that suggest the LAST thing he'd do is resign of materials published by any bloggers, popular or otherwise.
Perhaps things Vanderbloemen said at the end of 2014 could illuminate things?
http://www.theblaze.com/
Driscoll‘s recent resignation from the church he founded was followed by another shocking announcement: Mars Hill is dissolving by year’s end, with its 11 congregations becoming independent houses of worship.
And Vanderbloemen said that the stunning situation carries with it a plethora of lessons to be learned. “Mark stepped down at his own choice, but it wasn’t without a lot of pressure,” he said. “Mark’s departure didn’t contain any of the normal elements of a scandal.”
There wasn’t an extramarital affair nor any other explosive singular event that contributed to his downfall, he argued, calling Driscoll a “brilliant communicator.
“I’ve never seen anything quite like this,” Vanderbloemen said, noting that Driscoll ended up leaving over a wide variety of smaller infractions and debates that were perpetuated on the Internet. “We have seen a lot of guys have to leave, but never from the death of a thousand cuts that happened online.”
He continued, “There was a weird sort of perfect storm of critics and disorganization.”
In the end, Vanderbloemen said that Mars Hill grew very fast and simply wasn’t prepared for the level of expansion it experienced. As an anecdotal result, he said that churches need to do what businesses have done, drafting plans in preparation for uncertainty.
Pressure? From where?
But Vanderbloemen doesn't seem to have camped too much on whether or not a wide variety of smaller infractions revolved around any themes. How about plagiarism? Consult Warren Throckmorton's blog, or maybe a post or two in which Wenatchee The Hatchet raised a question of whether Dan Allender's work was adequately acknowledged in the first edition of Real Marriage.
Speaking of that book ... wasn't it pretty much a year ago that World Magazine's Warren Cole Smith broke a story about the use of Result Source by Mars Hill to secure a #1 spot on the NYT bestseller list for that book?
http://www.worldmag.com/2014/03/unreal_sales_for_driscoll_s_real_marriage
So between the plagiarism controversy and the controversy surrounding Result Source, both of which featured Real Marriage, what would be the basis for Mark Driscoll's resignation to have been catalyzed by .... popular bloggers? Wouldn't it seem more likely that the double-whammy of being confronted by Janet Mefferd on air about plagiarism and then having it revealed by World Magazine sales were rigged for one of Driscoll's books seem like bigger deals than bloggers?
Driscoll's resignation statement didn't seem to give any indication bloggers had anything to do with his decision. You can go read the whole thing if you want. Here's the pertinent pair of paragraphs
http://www.religionnews.com/?p=109053
... Prior to and during this process there have been no charges of criminal activity, immorality or heresy, any of which could clearly be grounds for disqualification from pastoral ministry. Other issues, such as aspects of my personality and leadership style, have proven to be divisive within the Mars Hill context, and I do not want to be the source of anything that might detract from our church’s mission to lead people to a personal and growing relationship with Jesus Christ.That is why, after seeking the face and will of God, and seeking godly counsel from men and women across the country, we have concluded it would be best for the health of our family, and for the Mars Hill family, that we step aside from further ministry at the church we helped launch in 1996. I will gladly work with you in the coming days on any details related to our separation
This does not sound like someone who was saying popular bloggers had anything to do with his decision, does it?
Is it possible Ruth Moon misunderstood what Vanderbloemen said? For that matter, would anyone associated with the Driscoll family be willing to clarify whether or not William Vanderbloemen was given any permission to make statements to any effect about the reason for Mark Driscoll's resignation? That seems to Wenatchee The Hatchet something for which Driscolls could understandably break social media silence, especially if there needs to be any statement that would set the record straight about what has lately been recounted in an article in Relevant magazine.
Wednesday, January 14, 2015
wayback machine archive of Jamie Munson resignation is back up, raw text reproduced for consideration
https://web.archive.org/web/20130925181152/http://marshill.com/2011/09/06/important-letters-from-pastors/
By: Mars Hill Blog
Posted: Sep 06, 2011
Important Letters from Pastors Jamie Munson and Mark Driscoll
Dear Mars Hill Church,
With much gratitude, much love, and many bittersweet tears, I am resigning from my staff role as Executive Pastor of Mars Hill Church, effective September 30. Jesus has called me into a new vocational season, and I informed Pastor Mark and Pastor Dave of my decision late last week. As I take some time to reflect on my twelve years on staff, I want to thank you for the privilege it has been to serve you, and praise God for the grace he has shown me.
I love Jesus.
I first showed up at Mars Hill in September 1997 as a 19-year-old who didn’t know Jesus. Total pagan. I had just moved from Missoula, Montana, for a change of scenery. I didn’t come to Seattle to find Jesus, but Jesus sure found me. Pastor Mark was preaching through Romans at the time, and I saw my sin and experienced the grace of Jesus. What’s cool is just a few weeks ago I got invited back to Missoula to preach to nearly 4,000 people and share the grace I have experienced.
I love my family.
At the age of 21 I met my wife in the pews of Mars Hill. We became friends, eventually dated, and were married a few months later. Crystal is amazing, a true gift from God, and in the following five years we were graced with four beautiful children. Mars Hill is the only church we’ve know together as a family and we intend to keep it that way as long as possible.
I love Pastor Mark.
One man more than any other has had a profound impact on my life, and that man is Pastor Mark. It was under his preaching and leadership that I met Jesus, was baptized, and was later called into full-time ministry. His friendship, his counsel, his patience, his leadership, his love for the church, his love for my family, and his love for Jesus are brilliant. I am eternally grateful for the impact he has had on my life and I look forward to continuing to build our friendship.
I love the staff and elders.
Over more than a decade on staff at Mars Hill I have had the opportunity to work with some of the best men and women anywhere. They love Jesus, they love the church, and they are some of the finest leaders around. Thank you all for your continued sacrifices and faithfulness.
I love the people of this church.
Mars Hill is made up of thousands of people whom Jesus has brought together as part of his church. The passion for Jesus and his mission is incredible, and I’m absolutely honored to be counted as one of your pastors and fellow servants of Jesus. Thank you for making my work a joy.
I love Mars Hill.
Mars Hill Church is the thing that ties all of these stories and relationships together. I’ve enjoyed a front row seat for every moment as we’ve grown from 100 to 10,000 people. I know I’m biased, but I believe this is the best church anyone could be a part of. I still plan and hope to be a part of the church for a long, long time. My family and I will continue to worship at Mars Hill, and I’ll still be a pastor, serving on the Board of Directors in an unpaid role. Between now and the end of the year, I will be taking a bit of a sabbatical to rest, regroup, and capture more of what Jesus has done; I hope to make some progress on a leadership book I’ve intended to write for some time. My time on staff at Mars Hill Church has come to an end, but the Munson family is not going anywhere, and we’re so excited to see what Jesus does in the next fifteen years. If it’s anything like the last fifteen, we’re all in for a great ride and grace beyond our expectations. I love you, Mars Hill. It’s all about Jesus,
Pastor Jamie Munson
P.S. Keep in touch on Facebook and Twitter. Read Pastor Mark's letter and vision statement after the jump.
Dear Mars Hill Church,
I am writing this letter to provide my perspective on Pastor Jamie’s transition as well as directives for how to respond and proceed. In seasons like this we need the elders, staff, and church to trust the senior leadership of Mars Hill. To help nourish that trust, Pastor Jamie and I are posting our letters together to demonstrate our unity and friendship while keeping no secrets and simply telling the truth. At his recent annual review, Pastor Jamie was given high performance marks and asked to return in his current role of Executive Pastor at Mars Hill Church. After a season of prayerful consideration, he informed his review team that he felt God was calling him to pursue a new ministry and business venture. He was again invited to continue in his current role on staff at Mars Hill Church, or move into another role in the organization. With great affection for the church, he has since come to the conclusion that the time has come for his transition off of paid staff. I want to make it emphatically clear: there is no disqualifying sin or error of any kind in Pastor Jamie’s life. This is in no way connected to anything negative. He is, by God’s grace, "above reproach," as he always has been. I also want to stress that there is no relational friction between Pastor Jamie and myself. In the days leading up to his decision, my children were at his house playing and vice versa, as has been the case for years. Our wives, Crystal and Grace, were in contact as friends as they always are. Jamie remains one of my nearest and dearest friends, a brother in every sense of the word, and personally I assure you we had no conflict and are as close as we’ve ever been. For example, on our recent family vacation I missed him and simply called him so I could check in on my friend. I deeply enjoy Jamie and intend to remain close friends with him and his family, as do Grace and our children. Nothing has changed personally in our relationship. Jamie is the same godly, humble, helpful, enjoyable man of God he’s always been. In this, we’ve both shed a few tears and are committed to our ongoing friendship. Here is what I am asking from you. Please pray for the Munson family. Please pursue the Munson family. Bomb them with love and affection. Make sure that Crystal and the wonderful Munson kids feel the embrace of Jesus through the affection of Mars Hill. If you are their friends, keep being their friends. I have known Crystal since she was in college before she and Jamie met. She is wonderful. We adore and enjoy her. She is as committed to our church and the mission of Jesus as anyone at Mars Hill. Let’s ensure that in this season of transition her friendships and community remain stable, steady, and supportive. Correct any gossip or rumor you hear that is negative and untrue. Celebrate the fact that Pastor Jamie is Mars Hill 1.0. He is exactly why Mars Hill exists. A lost young person meets Jesus and grows to be a godly leader, spouse, and parent who loves and leads well by the grace of God with humility and passion. He has given us every day of his life since he was 19 years of age. Mars Hill does not exist as a church of more than maybe a few hundred without God’s grace through Pastor Jamie. If a book were written about what God is doing among us, at least one whole chapter would be devoted to telling the story of God’s grace in Pastor Jamie’s life. This is a wonderful opportunity to honor and celebrate the grace of God through the Holy Spirit in the life of Pastor Jamie and his family. As part of the honoring of Pastor Jamie, people in and out of Mars Hill who want to thank the Munson family and give them gifts and such can do so by sending them digitally to andrew [at] marshill [dot] com or physically to:
Mars Hill Church Attn: Andrew Myers 1411 NW 50th Street Seattle, WA 98107
This way everyone who so desires can say thank you in their own way. Note: The remainder of this blog post contains more specific leadership directives regarding our future for those in and out of Mars Hill who are interested.
Leadership Vision for Mars Hill
My proposal to the Board of Directors (BOD) is that Pastor Jamie Munson remain an elder at Mars Hill Church Ballard. Following a sabbatical through the end of the year to enjoy his family, rest up, and finish writing a book, he will rejoin us as an unpaid board member at the highest legal level of Mars Hill Church. In God’s providence, the same day that Pastor Jamie made this decision, one of our unpaid BOD members had to resign due to escalating demands at his place of employment. So, while this man will remain an elder at his local Mars Hill Church, it opened a seat on the BOD for an unpaid elder, which Pastor Jamie fills perfectly. We need many more unpaid elders and Pastor Jamie helps us to raise the profile of that service. The plan is simply that Pastor Jamie will remain an elder at Mars Hill indefinitely. He has clearly communicated his desire to stay at Mars Hill and serve as an elder and we welcome this. So, Pastor Jamie is still Pastor Jamie. Also, the door to employment is always open to Pastor Jamie. It has been clearly communicated to him by myself personally and by his performance review team collectively that should he ever change his mind, we would welcome him back on staff at Mars Hill Church. Our bylaws require that our Executive Elder (EE) team have at least three members. Pastor Dave Bruskas and I remain on the EE. Thankfully, Pastor Dave and his family recently moved to Seattle after leading Mars Hill Albuquerque. His leadership, wisdom, and experience come at just the right time and we praise God he is on the team. In God’s providence, the sermon he preached at Mars Hill Ballard will air this Sunday at all our other churches, helping you to get to know him better. To fill Pastor Jamie’s vacancy on the EE, I am recommending that the BOD vote for Pastor Scott Thomas to join the EE for at least the foreseeable future. Pastor Scott has served faithfully for many years as an elder at Mars Hill, is among our most trained and seasoned leaders, is already a BOD member, and has served previously for many years as an EE member while also leading Acts 29. Pastor Dave and I both believe Pastor Scott is the best choice for this role in this season. Pastor Scott has been very clear in his love and commitment to Mars Hill and has said he will gladly serve wherever he is needed, which we deeply appreciate. Administratively, Pastor Jamie was our senior "king" and his departure requires very competent leadership to cover his many responsibilities. Thankfully, Pastor Jamie was a great leader and humble man. He surrounded himself with great people. This allows us to not have the kind of crisis that could otherwise ensue. Pastor Dave and I agree that Sutton Turner should function as our highest-ranking "king." Sutton is new to staff, but not to ministry. He is a former executive pastor of a large church. Educationally, he is a graduate of Texas A&M, the SMU Cox School of Business, and Harvard Business School. Professionally, he has recently served as the CEO of a company that has nearly 1,600 employees. Prior to that he served as the CEO of another company that under his leadership grew from 0 to 500 employees in the first year. He and his family moved to Seattle sensing a call to serve at Mars Hill, and we believe he is a gift from God to us for our future. He is currently well into the eldership process so be in prayer for that as well as his many duties at the church. This winter I will be cancelling the normal Christmas series. Instead, I will be spending some weeks on vision. Who is Mars Hill, how do we operate, where are we going? This is clear in my vision for the church and I want to share it with you. I want to increase our passion, hope, giving, and clarity across Mars Hill. I want to preach on the road from various Mars Hill churches, showing the vision, introducing the converts, and letting our people see the evidences of God’s grace in order to fire them up for 2012. In January we start the Real Marriage campaign and launch the book Grace and I have written by the same name for Thomas Nelson. We also have completed, thanks to Pastor Brad House, a small group curriculum that includes study guides and DVDs from Grace and me to help people—both single and married—grow relationally. We are inviting other churches to join us on this big campaign, and in the grace of God I believe 2012 will be the biggest year we’ve ever had. While we celebrate the past and honor the present, we also need to prepare for the future by God’s grace. We’ve been here before, many times before, in fact. As our church grows, we encounter obstacles and hit ceilings of complexity and need to adjust as necessary to get through the next size barrier. This was true at 200, 800, 2,000, and 6,000, just like the experts predicted. At 10,000 we are there again. I’ve been working on the beginnings of a comprehensive plan, as I can see into the future to 25,000 people a week, Lord willing. A finished version of that document will be released once it is revised with input and change from various leaders in the church, as well as wise counsel from leaders of churches larger than ours who have become friends. In the meantime, the data below provides some understanding of where we are and where we are going. There are three major variables essential to understanding a church: theology, philosophy of ministry, and size. Church size affects nearly every aspect of a church; bigger churches are not simply larger versions of smaller churches, but rather very different organizations. There are very few truly large churches in America, contrary to some perceptions. Estimates for the total number of churches in America range from 300,000 to 400,000. Of those, the following are the number of very large churches: •10,000 – 15,000 people = 26 churches
•16,000 – 20,000 people = 5 churches
•20,000 – 25,000 people = 3 churches
•25,000 – 40,000 people = 0 churches
•40,000+ people = 1 church
Total churches of 10,000 or more people = 35 A few observations help to articulate this further: 1.Fully 32 of the 35 churches listed as the largest in America are multi-site like Mars Hill.
2.The largest churches tend to be concentrated in Southern California, Texas, the Southeast, and around Lake Michigan, including Chicago.
For Mars Hill, regularly rolling through the 10,000 barrier would put us on the road to 15,000, which is the next barrier; after that it is 20,000 and then 25,000, if by God’s grace we get there. You can be in prayer for the Executive Elders and Sutton as we finalize plans for the next season of Mars Hill, which we will share with you when they are ready. We are now 13 Mars Hill churches meeting in four states and, like parents with a big family, we want to ensure everyone is taken care of and grows up to be healthy and strong. We are not driven by numbers, but we are driven to see the number of people meeting Jesus and walking with Jesus on mission in community go up because people need Jesus and Jesus loves them. For some, this raises questions regarding me. Am I going anywhere? No. My plan has not changed at all. I intend, by God’s grace, to be a pastor at our church for my lifetime. I am now 40 years old and you can write my name in for the next 25 years. At that time, we will see how the church and I are doing and what comes next. In the meantime, God has given us a wave of grace that we want to ride as long as we can. After some time off this summer, I am refreshed. My vision for Mars Hill is sharper and clearer than at any time in the history of the church. My passion for people, both our people and lost people to meet Jesus, is at an all-time high. The book Real Marriage took the friendship between Grace and me to an all-time high. I adore my gal! Our kids are healthy, happy, and holy, praise God! Internally, we have the best team to work with that we’ve ever had. The unity across the church is a miracle of the Holy Spirit. Externally, my friendships with godly leaders outside our church are a life-changing gift. We are well loved, encouraged, supported, and held accountable. My life is a miracle and I’m deeply thankful and really excited for what’s next. I’m back in the pulpit this Sunday at Ballard, summer is finished, school is back in session, fall is just around the corner, and it’s time to lace up our shoes, step into the blocks, and, as Paul says, run our race. Lastly, it’s still all about Jesus. In fifteen years at Mars Hill the big things never change. Jesus is Lord, the Holy Spirit is at work among us, the Bible is true, the world is hurting, the harvest is ripe, Satan is fighting, but the church is prevailing. A nobody trying to tell everybody about Somebody,
Pastor Mark Driscoll
it looks like with the dissolution of Mars Hill in process robots.txt is no longer in effect, sort of
which means a whole lot of old links that were dead in 2014 and accessible only by way of the WayBack Machine may now actually work.
http://web.archive.org/web/20080716081500/http://ballard.marshillchurch.org/pastors-staff/
Or not ... it depends.
What probably won't work ... are any things previously captured by The WayBack Machine for resurgence links such as stuff done by Catanzaro.
What does work is ...
https://web.archive.org/web/20130925181152/http://marshill.com/2011/09/06/important-letters-from-pastors/
the letters regarding Jamie Munson's resignation.
http://web.archive.org/web/20130520092350/https://theresurgence.com/2009/02/26/eastern-healing-alternative-medicine-and-christian-faith-part-1
What DOES work but not the video ... is
https://web.archive.org/web/20120528185351/http://marshill.com/2012/05/26/update-on-mars-hill-orange-countys-building
By: Mars Hill Church
on May 26, 2012
Our Orange County church is looking to move to a new location . . . yesterday. If not, they might be homeless like Jesus was. Here’s the latest update from Lead Pastor Nick Bogardus:
We’re continuing in our series on the seven churches of Revelation, which has been awesome. I’m thankful we have a preaching pastor who preaches and applies the Bible and the gospel so boldly. There isn’t a Sunday that we don’t hear all about Jesus and the gospel. What a gift!
Two other options came up at the end of this week that we will pursue first thing next week. We will keep you up to date as this all develops.
The reason I have tremendous hope is because of the reality of how God works.
He does his best work when there are no other options. He enables 90-year-old barren women to have babies. He redeems Israel from slavery in Egypt and, as they’re on the run with the most powerful army in the world chasing them and the sea in front of them, he delivers them by parting the sea. Out of the gruesome cross, he brings resurrection and life. It is how he works.
As a church, we are going to move forward in faith. We’re not going to grumble like the Israelites in the desert and quickly forget all he has done and is doing. We’re going to be dependant on him and continue moving towards where he is calling us.
If you live in Orange County and would like to get connected to a service team or Community Group, let us know here. If you are on either but aren’t leading, tell your leader that you want to be trained to lead.
I’m thankful to be here with you all and am tremendously hopeful for what God will do in and through us as a church,
I look forward to worshipping Jesus with you all on Sunday,
Pastor Nick
http://web.archive.org/web/20080716081500/http://ballard.marshillchurch.org/pastors-staff/
Or not ... it depends.
What probably won't work ... are any things previously captured by The WayBack Machine for resurgence links such as stuff done by Catanzaro.
What does work is ...
https://web.archive.org/web/20130925181152/http://marshill.com/2011/09/06/important-letters-from-pastors/
the letters regarding Jamie Munson's resignation.
http://web.archive.org/web/20130520092350/https://theresurgence.com/2009/02/26/eastern-healing-alternative-medicine-and-christian-faith-part-1
What DOES work but not the video ... is
https://web.archive.org/web/20120528185351/http://marshill.com/2012/05/26/update-on-mars-hill-orange-countys-building
By: Mars Hill Church
on May 26, 2012
Our Orange County church is looking to move to a new location . . . yesterday. If not, they might be homeless like Jesus was. Here’s the latest update from Lead Pastor Nick Bogardus:
The Observatory
We will be meeting at The Observatory as usual at 9:00 and 11:15 am. We will continue to meet there until 1) we find a new home or 2) the city comes to shut us down.We’re continuing in our series on the seven churches of Revelation, which has been awesome. I’m thankful we have a preaching pastor who preaches and applies the Bible and the gospel so boldly. There isn’t a Sunday that we don’t hear all about Jesus and the gospel. What a gift!
Building Update from This Week
The good news was that the church we were in negotiations with decided to come back to the table. The bad news is that they came back with some very unreasonable stipulations—for example, we would have to limit our church to 250 people per service and they would only give us 100 parking spots. Essentially they’d want us to turn people away; which goes against our mission to make as many disciples of Jesus and plant as many churches as possible in Orange County. I responded with our terms and we’re now waiting to hear back from them after they take it to their board. Honestly, I don’t see it working, but we should continue to pray.Two other options came up at the end of this week that we will pursue first thing next week. We will keep you up to date as this all develops.
Adversity in Mission
Though we might be getting adversity from both the city and other churches—which was the pattern in Acts—we believe God has given our church a unique and particular mission. He will be faithful to sustain. We are called to be faithful in the mission.Why There Is Always Hope
I have tremendous hope for what God will do in this situation, which is odd considering my often sinful need for control and fear of failure.The reason I have tremendous hope is because of the reality of how God works.
He does his best work when there are no other options. He enables 90-year-old barren women to have babies. He redeems Israel from slavery in Egypt and, as they’re on the run with the most powerful army in the world chasing them and the sea in front of them, he delivers them by parting the sea. Out of the gruesome cross, he brings resurrection and life. It is how he works.
As a church, we are going to move forward in faith. We’re not going to grumble like the Israelites in the desert and quickly forget all he has done and is doing. We’re going to be dependant on him and continue moving towards where he is calling us.
Here Is How
1. Prayer & Fasting
Every Wednesday as a church we will pray and fast together once a week for lunch. We may not be all together at one time but we will know that, as we do it, we will be joining with each other in praying: thanking Jesus for what he has and is doing in our church, asking for a building we can call a home, and remembering his promises.2. Giving
Whenever God opens a door, we will need to raise money as a church to simply move. Our current location, the Observatory, has a lot of equipment that we use but don’t own. Instead of waiting to give toward that, we are going to start giving toward it now, as church. The team has already set up a special fund for us called “Orange County – Replant.” You can give online, by check, or on Sundays. When God does open the door, we will be ready to move forward.3. Serving & Leading
Similarly, moving will require growing our service teams and leadership. We want to start training you now so that when God opens the door we have enough people to lead and serve so that we can do church well.If you live in Orange County and would like to get connected to a service team or Community Group, let us know here. If you are on either but aren’t leading, tell your leader that you want to be trained to lead.
I’m thankful to be here with you all and am tremendously hopeful for what God will do in and through us as a church,
I look forward to worshipping Jesus with you all on Sunday,
Pastor Nick
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