Friday, December 26, 2014

Throckmorton: MH Bellevue that is now renaming as Doxa Church discloses salaries and more in memo on transparency

While some in the leadership circle at Mars Hill Bellevue (which is becoming Doxa Church) ...

may not answer all the questions that need to be answered (which at least Matt Rogers might be in a position to partly address by way of a membership on the Board of Advisors & Accountability) it remains to be seen how the new Doxa Church goes.

Wenatchee The Hatchet is not sufficiently familiar enough with Vanderstelt to have much of an opinion about him.  However, Wenatchee The Hatchet has learned enough about the history of earlier Acts 29 and some of its politics to suggest that readers bear in mind that Vanderstelt was part of an Acts 29 affiliation circa 2002 to 2004, the period in which David Nicholas still had a significant role in the leading of Acts 29.  Nicholas had not yet been, by Ron Wheeler's account, moved out of having any effective role on the Acts 29 leadership board.  While it remains to be seen if Nicholas' writing or correspondence regarding Mark Driscoll's character and conduct may ever ultimately see the light of day this is stuff to bear in mind.  Not even Wenatchee The Hatchet is in a position to be sure Vanderstelt is what some might want to call a "good guy" or "bad guy" but enough people have had a positive impression of him that a wait and see approach for Vanderstelt in particular is going to be Wenatchee's approach.

Notwithstanding Mark Driscoll's old canard that congregational rule in a church is like letting the mental patients run the nuthouse (which was given a firmer variation by James MacDonald's old "congregational rule is from Satan") a church that has more input and say in how it is governed and a church in which members are able to observe every line item in the budget would be a helpful direction. 

Given the debt scenario James MacDonald and leadership company got their church into it seems improbable that congregational governance is really from Satan even as a hyperbolic statement.  Wenatchee leans more Presbyterian but the trouble with denominations is that regardless of what cage phase you're in for your pet church movement there's ultimately no formal institution that really prevents abuse.  Abuse can, does, and simply already has come up in every human movement and institution. 

Still, Doxa Church may be off to a promising start ....

then again ... the same was certainly being said about Mars Hill, too. We'll just have to see.

in anticipation of the pending dissolution of Mars Hill at the end of 2014, Mark Driscoll on the evils of "God Box" church leadership from a sermon in 2004.
1 Timothy
Part 12: 1 Timothy 6:1-10
Pastor Mark Driscoll
March 21, 2004
About 32:53 along
Satan robbed these people. They don’t even have the tools and the framework to come to the truth. They’ve been robbed. They are theologically, morally, spiritually vacant. There is nothing there.
 Here’s the bottom line. They think that godliness is a means to financial gain. You want the sick, hard, cold truth, friends? Every time there’s heresy, error, church splits, divisions, factions, fighting, trace the money, and you’ll find the taproot. It’s always, it’s always, always financial. It’s money. It’s power. It’s control. It’s wealth. It’s affluence. That’s what it is.

These silly, stupid, little denominations, what they do is this. Hank in Dubuque, Iowa, is a union farmer. He goes to his local church, Episcopalian, Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian, whatever mainline liberal denomination it might be. Hank loves Jesus. Hank gets radically saved. Hank takes 10 percent of all the money from his plumbing job, and he gives it to his church 'cause his pastor there loves Jesus, and he doesn’t know any different. The pastor’s a good guy, and Hank’s a good guy, so Hank gives 10 percent to the church. Hank thinks it’s going to the church.

Well, it doesn’t go to the church. Hank’s 10 percent goes into some fund that’s far away from Hank in some bureaucrat’s office. And that bureaucrat’s paid by Hank to sit around and make decisions and write silly little books that’ll govern Hank’s church. And if Hank doesn’t agree with it, that’s just tough 'cause Hank doesn’t have a Master’s degree. [emphasis added]He only loves Jesus. He’s just a plumber. He should shut up. He’s like Jesus. He’s a blue collar guy, not really fit to do doctrine.

And so this guy over here and his bureaucrat friends who get their salary paid by Hank’s 10 percent and his buddy’s 10 percent from the union hall, they decide that all the sudden Hank’s gonna have a homosexual pastor. All of the sudden, Hank’s not gonna believe that the Bible’s the Word of God 'cause they took a vote.

All of the sudden, they’re gonna send theologians in to do a conference telling Hank that maybe Jesus didn’t rise from the dead. And Hank wonders, “Why do I gotta put up with this? Am I not paying your salary? You don’t seem to love Jesus.”

And then those guys say, “Well, you know what, Hank? We own your building. You and your kids and your grandkids and your friends, you guys worked really hard, and you’ve given sacrificially to pay off that building? Ultimately, Hank, we own your real estate, so Hank, you gotta put up with this, meaning you gotta keep paying our salary to abuse you. And if you try to rebel, we’ll steal the real estate that you paid millions of dollars for, Hank.” That’s how mainline denominations work. You wonder why people don’t leave their denomination? Because the denomination – the liberal ones – own the property. Guys, think about that.

We bought this building a year ago. You guys are giving sacrificially. We’re paying for this building. Can you imagine working very, very, very hard as a church to pay this off and we don’t own it? Some bureaucrat in office somewhere that you never met, that doesn’t know you, that when you get sick won’t be at the hospital laying hands and praying over you, won’t baptize your kids when they get saved, won’t officiate your wedding, won’t sit down and study the Bible with you? A guy you can’t even meet with, you’ll never know, just some guy pushing paperwork somewhere who’s not your pastor, he control your building that you paid for. [emphasis added]

And if he decides that Jesus is not God, tough. Tough. And if you want, he’ll sell you the building, and this happens all the time, and you buy the thing twice. It’s the sickest thing I can think of. It’ s unbelievable.

In the last few months the Board of Advisors and Accountability, which includes a Board of Overseers whose role seems to have been defined as its members not being part of Mars Hill by definition, voted to dissolve the corporation.  Can someone explain how that's not the "God Box" type of remote control corporate church leader Driscoll warned about ten years ago?

As for the questions about where money was spent and on what one of the questions has been why there has not been more transparency about exactly what happened with Mars Hill Global.  A decade ago Mark Driscoll explained how denominations that left the farm used ownership of real estate and control of finances to prevent good Christians in leadership from being able to say anything without fear of reprisals. 

 Driscoll went on to explicitly describe The God Box:

I got a buddy locally. He’s a wonderful guy, loves Jesus. His church loves Jesus. They’re in a wack  job denomination that has totally left the farm. And I said, “Well, why don’t you leave?” He said, “Well, if we leave, we lose the building. I lose my salary. I lose my pension, my retirement. I lose my ordination. Some of these people are third, fourth generation in the church. Their parents and grandparents and great-grandparents literally carved the pews that we sit in. If we leave, we lose everything.” [emphasis added]

I said, “Well, you better else or you’re gonna lose Jesus, and the church isn’t a place. It’s a people. And it’s not a business. It’s a family. I don’t care what the false teachers say and vote and do. You stick with Christ. And if they wanna go the way of Judas Iscariot and put their hand in the till, then you let God deal with them.”

I’ll tell you guys a dirty, little secret. There’s a place in Manhattan called The God Box. I went there a few years ago. I was doing some consulting in Manhattan, take me to The God Box, this huge building in downtown Manhattan, expensive real estate. [emphasis added] Each floor in the building is the headquarters for a different liberal mainline Protestant denomination: American Baptist, Evangelical Lutherans, Presbyterian Church USA, United Methodist, Episcopalians. Everyone’s got their floor.

I’m thinking that’s weird, and it’s all filled with bureaucrats. It’s weird. It’s like the house on Scooby Doo, you know? It’s just a lot of weird things in there. It’s all kind of nefarious, you know, like, “Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha! We have a concord. We wrote a little book.” You know, it’s just all this weird stuff comes out. And I went into it, and I remember meeting with one of the guys there 'cause we got a tour, and then we went down to lunch.

And all the guys from all the denominations come down like the United Nations, and they all have lunch together, and they all sit around and they all have these – this is how they come up with these agreements and all these joint resolutions and all this stuff, and I wondered how this all happened. Well, they’re all sitting in The God Box in Manhattan.

And I remember sitting there with this guy, and I’m like, “So what do you do?” He says, “Well, I’m blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.” I said, “Well, you know, are you in a church? Are you a pastor? You baptize people, teach the Bible, officiate weddings?” “No, no, no, no, no. I work for the denomination.” “Well, what do you do?” “Well, I sit here in The God Box, and they pay my salary, and then I come up with decisions, me and my other guys on this team, and then we enforce it on all the other churches in the United States of America.” I’m like, “So you get to tell everybody what to do?” It’s like yeah.

Most people don’t know that. Most people don’t know that it’s really not their pastor and their brothers and sisters in the seat next to them that controls the destiny of their church but somebody in The God Box, who’s a bureaucrat trying to get on CNN or get a book deal or be the next rock star for whatever silly little academic nonsense is going on in pop culture. And he’s sitting there having lunch with a couple other guys who are bored as well, and they’re tired of shuffling paperwork so they dream up some nut job scheme that destroys everything. [emphasis added]
It's begun to look like Mars Hill has its own God Box, one that voted on the formal dissolution of the corporation.  In ten years time Mars Hill as a corporation and Mark Driscoll as an individual seem more and more to have turned into nearly everything they publicly took a stand against.  Thanks to the decisions of guys in the God Box, in just a few days Mars Hill the corporation will dissolve. terms of use and terms of use, has MH formally granted MD permission to just use all their visual design stuff already? a question in light of the 2011 cease and desist letter over trademark and images
The terms of use are fascinating, particularly since Mark Driscoll's new site just uses the entire mass of content from Mars Hill minus the explicit Mars Hill trademark lump sum and all the content that Wenatchee The Hatchet has noted was purged from the Mars Hill website earlier this year.

One can only surmise that Mars Hill Church as a corporation has produced express written permission for this to happen?

It may be the reason none of the rebranding church plants are using Mars Hill in the name could have something to do with trademark, licensing and derivative work.  So long as the name and branding of Mars Hill are ended with respect to any of the actual churches formerly called Mars Hill, the fact that Mark Driscoll's content was basically generated within the context of Mars Hill means that if all the formerly MH churches rebrand and develop new trademarks then the intellectual property (such as it's been) of Mark Driscoll can be used by Driscoll without running into the possible snag of his not being a member of or a pastor at Mars Hill.

We do have that 2011 news bit in which Mars Hill let a cease and desist letter get sent out

In a Saturday blog post, elders from the Seattle church said the incident is not part of a larger campaign. "We have not sued any churches and have no plans to sue any churches," they said. "We have not sent any similar letters to any other 'Mars Hill' churches, and we are not planning on asking any church with 'Mars Hill' in their name to change their name." [emphasis added]

Perhaps the rebranding and relaunching of the surviving Mars Hill churches at the end of this year becomes the exception that proved the formerly stated rule?

For a moderately well preserved extract (a pretty big one) of the now removed notice Mars Hill gave in the wake of the trademark incident you can go here.

The same blog links to another post that explains that the cease and desist was over artwork and branding more than the formal name.

Which may raise a question of what formal written permission Mars Hill's leadership can establish has been given to Mark Driscoll to basically take the entire sermon media library content of Mars Hill and largely unmodified content to have over at

Driscoll made a point of making pretty much all his sermons his intellectual property so that part's pretty straightforward but all the visual branding and look and feel look like ... Mars Hill.

So long as the corporation formerly known as Mars Hill formally dissolves and hands off the intellectual property and trademarking across the board in a formal compensation project of some kind to Driscoll then there'd be no reason Mars Hill would repeat its cease-and-desist action in later 2011 with that church in the Sacramento area during the season in which Sutton Turner began to finalize the Result Source Inc deal on behalf of Mark and Grace Driscoll's Real Marriage.

It didn't seem likely that in the wake of Driscoll's resignation he was going to switch over to driving a bread delivery truck.  Maybe he's seen A Matter of Loaf and Death at some point and has considered whether or not there are safety hazards to even that bread delivery work. 

Wednesday, December 24, 2014

Driscoll 1-22-06 on the problem of a pastor having a domain name with his name in it, two years after the registration of

Domain ID: D104853693-LROR
Creation Date: 2004-09-07T15:38:06Z
Updated Date: 2014-12-10T02:19:44Z

Registry Expiry Date: 2015-09-07T15:38:06Z
Sponsoring Registrar:eNom, Inc. (R39-LROR)
Sponsoring Registrar IANA ID: 48
WHOIS Server: 
Referral URL: 
Domain Status: clientTransferProhibited
Registrant ID:24938753-NSI
Which gets us to this sermon a couple of years later in 2006 where Driscoll talked about the problems of teams and loyalty to teams in Corinth.  This one took a while to track down because Wenatchee The Hatchet had mistakenly remembered this stuff being said closer to 2004 than 2006.  But, here you go.
Part 3 of 1st Corinthians
Pastor Mark Driscoll
1 Corinthians 1:10-17
January 22, 2006

You know, what happens is they get these teams and they fight. Everybody gets a jersey, and it’s like you’re rock stars. And the indie rockers don’t like all the teeny-bop pop fans and everything’s sorta – and they carried this sort of cultural arrogance into the church. And they said, “Well, Paul’s my guy”, or “Peter’s my guy, Cephas.” Or “No, Apollos is my guy.” And they broke off into teams in the church. So they’d show up with their jerseys on, you know. The Raider fans over here in their silver and black, and then the Hawks fans over here on this side, and the East Coast hip-hoppers, and the West Coast hip-hoppers. And the whole church is divided and fighting, and they need not be.

They need not be the team of Paul, the team of Apollos, the team of Peter. Because Paul and Peter and Apollos all love Jesus, all said the same thing. They all serve the same God. Apollos was a great preacher. Peter was the leader of the disciples. And also Paul was the one who had founded the church. There were good reasons to respect each of these men. And what happened was that the church had an elevated sense of human leadership, and they adored, appreciated, admired and almost worshiped their leaders too much. This still happens in Christianity, right? Some of you love John Calvin. Some of you love John Wesley. Some of you love whomever it might be.

Some of you have teams that you consider yourself to be on, theologically or philosophically insofar as how church should be done. And what happens is that certain Christians get elevated like rock stars, and it’s not good. It’s not good at all. I know one church the pastor’s name is the domain for the church website. That’s not good. Like if it was and that was our website, you’d go, “You know that’s a little much.” That’s a little much, because if he gets hit by a car do we gotta get a new name? That seems that the church should be more than a focus on one person. That’s why to be honest with this church I try not to show up and speak at every event.

Then video venue/multisite happened, what, within the next two years?

But of course Mark Driscoll isn't a pastor anywhere at any church right now in this season.  He resigned his eldership and membership from Mars Hill this year.  And while he didn't use for Mars Hill as such, it's interesting to note that before the 2006 sermon in which he joked about PastorMarkRocksMyWorld he'd set up 

Driscoll moved along to discuss how things can get dangerous for the health of the church when the leadership consists of kings, when the pastor is a king and nobody can get rid of him if he doesn't want to leave. 

I heard a report of one church that the pastor has gone crazy in his thinking and the church has gone from thousands down to dozens, and they still can’t get rid of him because he’s the king, and he’s the little god, and this church is his possession. And everybody leaves and he’d left with nothing, but no one has the authority to say, “You are not obeying God and your doctrine is weird, and you’re not making any sense and you can’t lead us anymore.” This is very dangerous. This is where churches take on a cult-like posture. Where they’re so loyal to one leader that whatever he says, goes, period.

So we need to be careful that we do respect spiritual leadership, that we do honor pastors and leaders and elders and deacons, that there is a respect for people who God has appointed to lead the church. But there shouldn’t be an over-emphasis on our leaders, and they should not be the final authority. [emphasis added] And when someone comes and asks the question, “Why does your church work?” they should say the name of Jesus, not their pastor. And as well there was another team in this church – very, very sadly – that not only over-emphasized – see, the one team over-emphasized human leadership. The other just disrespected it altogether. And I guess these are the two extremes of Christianity.

Overemphasis on leaders? Shouldn't be the final authority? The irony of Driscoll saying that as Mars Hill increasingly came to be defined by Mark Driscoll as a brand probably speaks for itself.

Driscoll would go on to say ... :

It’s amazing how few Christians have a pastor and have a church that they actually are connected to, involved in, and growing in. There is a growing number of people who profess to be Christians and just claim to be on Team Jesus. “I don’t need a church. Just me and Jesus, we hang.” These are people who have no respect for spiritual authority. They don’t have any real heart to show up and contribute to and benefit their church. They just tend to be people who are very – quite frankly – arrogant and proud. They’re so close to Jesus and they’re so much like him that they don’t need anybody else.

Is Mark Driscoll currently a member of a church anywhere submitting to spiritual authority?  Because if he's not then the stuff he said back in 2006 might suggest people not take what he seriously in instructing others if he isn't following his own instruction.

Well, at least the domain is and not PastorMarkRocksMyWorld, right?

Tuesday, December 23, 2014

Arthur Demarest on how "... the key strengths of civilizations are also their weaknesses ... " cue "and this is just like Mars Hill"

In an article that seems as though it could be about Mars Hill rather than ancient Mayan civilization, here are a few fascinating snippets:

Paradoxically, the key strengths of civilizations are also their central weaknesses. You can see that from the fact that the golden ages of civilizations are very often right before the collapse.

Why, reading that set of sentences reminded Wenatchee The Hatchet of an old post here called something like "Mars Hill and the idol of social media", the shorter, newer version of something dating back to 2012:

Another interesting snippet is this, about ways ancient leaders attempted to engage the crises they perceived in their society:

... These steps were actually counterproductive, imposing additional costs and damage and not addressing the real problems. Yet, any really helpful response would have involved political change to redefine the very nature [of] leadership and its roles and institutions.

or then there's this:

The surprising, seemingly contradictory, truth is that most civilizations do not meet their end after a slow decline and do not collapse because of late developing “weaknesses.” The ample record of failed societies chronicles systems at their peak of success, then rapidly disintegrating. [emphasis added]

As Mark Driscoll used to say after reading a text in Nehemiah in 2007, "and this is just like Mars Hill ..."

going back more than ten years to the days when Driscoll described himself as an apostle, what that meant, and his fantasies of quitting ministry and driving bread delivery trucks

1 TIMOTHY 1:1-11
Part 2 of 1 Timothy
Pastor Mark Driscoll
1 Timothy 1:1-11
January 11, 2004

The secondary use of apostle is one who is a missionary or a church planter. Somebody who goes into an area that has a need for the gospel in the church. They preach about Jesus. People become Christians and a church gets formed. The difference between an apostle and a pastor is very profound. A pastor can take a church, love and grow and build a people. An apostle comes in where there is no church and starts something from nothing. It really is an entrepreneurial gift. Here, I function as apostle, not the big A apostle, eyewitness to Jesus, you know, you’ll love my new book of the Bible. Not that kind of apostle – but the small A apostle. The guy, who comes in, preaches and starts a church from nothing. That’s my gift. That’s what we do. We’ve been privileged to be part of an organization that started over 100 churches in the last three years. It’s actually headquartered here at the church, and our goal is to plant 30 more churches in the United States of America this year, alone. So you can pray for that. That’s what we do. We pull into an area. We find a leader. We raise money. We gather people and a church gets planted. The leader does that. Were looking for fellow apostles.

An apostle is someone who starts with an idea and a calling from God. Usually, it’s a guy in his underwear, walking around the living room of his house trying to figure out what is going to do. He’s got an idea. “I want a church. A lot of people. I want people to come to meet Jesus. I want to have a band. Oh, man. I gotta get a musician and a woofer. I need – I want to have people download my sermon. Oh no, I’m gonna need a computer. You know, we’re gonna have people. Uh oh, we gotta get people. They’re gonna need chairs. We gotta get chairs. We’re gonna need a roof. Oh my gosh. I better put my pants on. I have a lot to do.” That’s an apostle. An apostle’s got a big idea and has gotta figure out how to execute it. And Paul says he’s an apostle by the – by the command of God. That’s why he’s an Apostle.

Any of you guys who are thinking, “Oh, I’d like to be an apostle,” no you don’t. You don’t. You don’t. You’re only an apostle if God makes you an apostle. I didn’t want to be an apostle. I remember, as a brand new Christian, I was at a men’s retreat with my first church. It was a wonderful church that I thank God for, and I was praying and God spoke to me and he told me what to do with my life. And I thought, “Noooo. Not that.” Because see, part of my salvation prayer, part of my salvation prayer was that I wouldn’t be a pastor. Seriously. I remember thinking, “Man, if I become a Christian, I’m gonna have to be a pastor. If I become a pastor, my life’s going to stink. I want to go to Heaven. I don’t want to go to Hell but I don’t want to go into ministry. How can I go to heaven without going into ministry because ministry seems like Hell and I don’t wanna go to Hell and I don’t wanna go into ministry?”

And so I remember telling God, “God, here’s the deal. I know Jesus, you died for my sins. You rose for my sins. I love you. I’ll follow you. I’ll serve you. I’ll do whatever you want. I would just rather not be a pastor. Amen.” That was like my salvation prayer, literally my salvation prayer, and then God speaks to me a short time later at this men’s retreat and says, “Study the Bible, marry Grace, plant churches, and train men.” I’m like, “No! Come on. I don’t wanna do that.” And what you find is the majority of people in the Bible that are called of God are not excited. These aren’t like those freshmen in Bible College, you know, these guys are like, “No, come on! Come on! Not a pastor! I don’t wanna be a pastor. I wanna get a real job with, you know, I wanna, no. People are gonna call me and gosh!”
Is there ever a time, even if you love God, that you’re in ministry and you think about quitting? Yes. I call that Monday. Every Monday, every Monday I have – I love you, I love the church – but every Monday I have a bread truck fantasy. I will share with you my bread truck fantasy. My bread truck fantasy is that I drive a bread truck. That’s what I do. I get up on Monday, I go to the bakery. They hand me the keys to the bread truck. I’m in charge of bread. Bread doesn’t commit adultery. Bread doesn’t get its girlfriend pregnant. Bread does it have alcohol problems or DUIs. The bread truck doesn’t have, you know, unpredictable giving patterns. The bread – the bread’s just the bread. And I get in the truck and I turn on sports radio, and I don’t have a cell phone because I don’t need one. The bread can’t email me; has no urgent emergency. In addition, I don’t have an e-mail address or a website because it’s just bread. I drive around all day in the bread truck and what do I smell? Bread. And when I get hungry, I pull over and I put meat and cheese on the bread, any time I like. I deliver my bread all day to the bakery and then they take the bread off the truck. When it’s all done, I go home and you know what I think about? Nothing. Because there’s nothing else to do, there’s nothing else to think about. My job is done. On Friday, nothing. It’s a glorious fantasy that I have. Every time I see a guy in a bread truck, I’m coveting another man’s life. I’m thinking, “That guy is brilliant. That is a brilliant man. In the bread truck.” and the best thing with the bread truck is, if you get in a terrible wreck with the bread truck and you roll the bread truck in the bread goes everywhere – it doesn’t matter, it’s just bread. They’ll make more. There are days, in every minister’s life – it’s just Bread Truck Monday. That’s what it is. Every Monday, I have Bread Truck Monday, kay?
A season of driving a bread delivery truck is still possible, isn't it?

pastor mark tv redirecting to Well, at least it's not called "Mark Driscoll Rocks My World", right?

It looks like if you're hunting for Pastor Mark TV these days it redirects you to ...

Domain ID: D104853693-LROR
Creation Date: 2004-09-07T15:38:06Z
Updated Date: 2014-12-10T02:19:44Z
Registry Expiry Date: 2015-09-07T15:38:06Z
Sponsoring Registrar:eNom, Inc. (R39-LROR)
Sponsoring Registrar IANA ID: 48
WHOIS Server: 
Referral URL: 
Domain Status: clientTransferProhibited
Registrant ID:24938753-NSI
Registrant Name:Mars Hill Fellowship Seattle
Registrant Organization:Mars Hill Fellowship Seattle
Registrant Street: 7758 Earl Ave NW
Registrant City:Seattle
Registrant State/Province:WA
Registrant Postal Code:98117
Registrant Country:US
Registrant Phone:+1.2067066641
Registrant Phone Ext: 
Registrant Fax: 
Registrant Fax Ext: 
Registrant Email:jason@MARSHILLCHURCH.ORG

Read more:

Now in the "give" segment of there's ...

Learning for Living is an application-pending registered 501(c)3 nonprofit organization. All donations are tax deductible in full or in part.

While there is a lot that could be said about the "application-pending" part, Wenatchee The Hatchet isn't feeling hugely inspired to address that in more detail.

Instead, it's worth noting that the domain name was set up a decade ago.  Was there some time way back when in which Driscoll used to joke there wasn't a website called "Mark Driscoll Rocks My World"?  Maybe, maybe not, but we can turn in a moment to revisit a fantasy Driscoll said he always had about not having to be a church planter or an apostle ...

In a not surprising move, Resurgence on sale for 100k by way of a firm from TX (HT Throckmorton)

Since this was sort of a topic raised by Wenatchee The Hatchet in the wake of Sutton Turner's resignation ...

it's not a surprise to read news that Resurgence and associated properties are up for sale.

But what properties does Resurgence even have at this point?  Many of the authors who were published through the Re:Lit imprint retained the copyright to their work and the Resurgence itself was basically a wholly owned subsidiary of Mars Hill and Mark Driscoll retained the intellectual property of nearly everything he ever published. 

But whether the sale includes Resurgence Publishing Inc could get a little more clarification.

UBI Number 603207560
Category REG
Profit/Nonprofit Profit
Active/Inactive Active
State Of Incorporation WA
WA Filing Date 05/17/2012
Expiration Date 05/31/2015
Inactive Date 
Duration Perpetual


1411 NW 50TH ST

Since pretty much from start to finish these days John Sutton Turner seems to be the manager it would seem that Resurgence being up for sale by way of peeps in Texas would be nearly inevitable.
The Resurgence didn't used to be a for-profit corporation, did it?  At some point it may have been a non-profit umbrella but Wenatchee is no longer sure.  If the company is selling for the zone of 100k it's not clear whether or not it ever actually turned a significant profit just yet.

Earlier this year Wenatchee speculated that ...
"a possible future for Driscoll, head to TX under the "covering" of Robert Morris who could then send Driscoll out to plant in OC, a speculation "

There's no confirmation as yet whether the Driscolls still live in Washington state.  The house in Seattle may have finally sold recently but since the house in Woodway was deeded over to Driscoll's sister last year anyway it may be that the Driscolls do not formally or directly own any real estate.

But the question about Resurgence Publishing was ultimately likely when and not if it was going to be put up for sale and who would be announcing the sale. goes up ... but as yet there's no formal statement WtH can see that this was in any way Mark Driscoll's idea

It kind of looks like an agglomeration of Mars Hill stuff that already exists, so far.

Welcome to the new
This website was built in response to requests from people wanting access to Pastor Mark Driscoll’s past and future Bible teaching. This is the only official resource from Pastor Mark Driscoll, and will soon be the exclusive home for content from Pastor Mark and his family.

Our prayer is that these resources will help non-Christians meet Jesus and help Christians become more like Jesus - because as Pastor Mark says, “It’s all about Jesus!”

We appreciate your prayers and patience as we continue to build this site as a useful resource for you. There is a lot of work to be completed as we transition Pastor Mark’s past sermon archives over to this new online home. This work includes hosting content in various formats (audio, video, transcribed, translated).

Download a FREE E-book from Pastor Mark!

In conjunction with the holiday season, we are offering a free new resource that we hope is helpful for your walk with Jesus. The Christmas themed e-book, The Boy Who Is Lord: Jesus’ Birth in Luke’s Gospel, is adapted from Pastor Mark’s sermon series through Luke. You can download it today for free.

Support Free Resources

When you click below you’ll also see an option to give a gift, which will support the creating, hosting and distributing of past and present Bible teaching and other resources from Pastor Mark Driscoll. This includes the hosting and maintenance of this site. We greatly appreciate your support so we can continue to bless others with this content.

Thank you for your love and prayers for Pastor Mark and his family, as they grieve a transition from people they love and seek the Lord for their next ministry season. Stay tuned to for more.

So does this mean the website has the formal blessing and initiative of Mark Driscoll or is it the creation of some fans who may not have heard whether or where Mark Driscoll is going to continue in formal ministry yet?  Will the website feature the content from the 2008 spiritual warfare series or all the preaching material from Peasant Princess? 

If this was genuinely a website set up at the initiative of Mark Driscoll it would include a whole lot more of his sermons, wouldn't it?  I mean, if Driscoll retained control of his intellectual property and was definitely behind this site wouldn't we expect a vast majority of previously purged sermon material to reappear?  Or have there been questions in the wake of the plagiarism controversy as to whether or not even sermon series from Driscoll may have had instances of alleged plagiarism?  It was starting to look as though Mefferd and Throckmorton found a lot of citation errors in books but the question of the degree to which Driscoll's preaching may have leaned on the works of others was not necessarily broached.  In a few cases the rather obvious intellectual debt to John Stott came up from the pulpit, as with the 2005 Christ on the Cross series.  Since that set of sermons became the book Death By Love ... one would expect to have seen that material on, too.

Perhaps Driscoll can tweet or instagram to clarify that this whole recently emerged website is in any way his idea.

And while we're at it ... since some of the formerly vaguely exclusive leadership coaching material has been made open access ...

If Driscoll's let material get reissued without the former restrictions of subscription and has stuff about how you need to be under authority before you're in it ... can Mark Driscoll answer the question of whose authority he's under since he resigned his membership at Mars Hill and left eldership in the wake of the restoration plan that was allegedly being proposed by the Mars Hill Board of Elders?  Has Mars Hill's Board of Advisors and Accountability, authorized to sell real estate in the event of a financial crisis of the sort that the dissolving Mars Hill may have been dealing with,  granted formal permission for these things?  Or does that matter if after all this time the intellectual property of Mark Driscoll (such as it is) was generally always or only owned by Driscoll?

Monday, December 22, 2014

yes, there's stuff potentially going on ...

but some things aren't going to get mentioned by Wenatchee The Hatchet unless they actually happen.

There are other things in life, after all.

Wenatchee's not so sure there's energy or focus enough to transcribe the rest of the crazy that was the 2008 spiritual warfare session Driscoll gave to leaders at Mars Hill at this point.  It's worth generally outlining that while Driscoll told leaders a big threat would be wolves from within, it's interesting how in individual counseling the threats, demonic or relational, tend to come from more outside avenues.  Combine instruction to Mars Hill leaders to beware of wolves from within while individual counselees get coached through recovered memories of things done to them by family members and it's not that big a stretch to suggest that this approach to counseling would leverage ideas that have been debunked as of about twenty to thirty years ago. 

While it is possible to overstate the degree to which intergenerational resentment factored into Mark Driscoll's writing and preaching this would not be something to overlook in assessing his influence of the "biblical living" department of Mars Hill Church in the last ten years. 

But, again, it may well be transcribing and analyzing and discussing part 3 of the 2008 warfare series, the one in which the demon trials get explicitly discussed and Driscoll made the case that Christians absolutely could be demonized in the sense of external oppression if not through internal influence, could and perhaps should be discussed.  After all, no one in the leadership of Mars Hill ranging from the lowliest volunteer to the members of the Board of Advisors & Accountability (with the potential exception of the former BoAA member Paul Tripp) has made any kind of overture to repudiate Driscoll's 2008 ideas or practices. 

Still, it's Christmas this week and Wenatchee The Hatchet would prefer to wish all the readers a merry Christmas with family and friends rather than do much blogging this week. 

It's been a busy and weird year, this.