Showing posts with label malachi. Show all posts
Showing posts with label malachi. Show all posts

Sunday, July 07, 2019

Mark Driscoll offering signed sermon notes to people who sign on for the weekly list, Throckmorton notes. UPDATE Tweet removed

UPDATE 7-8-2019 the tweet has been removed
https://twitter.com/PastorMark/status/1147718142770044928

Fired up to preach 9@11 am tmrw @thetrinitychrch! Want these signed sermon notes after I’m done? Get on the weekly list by sending your name and address to hello@markdriscoll.org

9:05 PM - 6 Jul 2019

if you want evidence of what once was ... Jacob Denhollander has a "just in case" capture.

https://twitter.com/JJ_Denhollander/status/1148008666643226624

Now back to the original content of the post.

https://www.wthrockmorton.com/2019/07/07/want-mark-driscolls-autographed-sermon-notes-sign-up/


It got me wondering whether Charles Spurgeon would have made a similar offer.  Why do I mention Charles Spurgeon?  Because internal communication in the Mark Driscoll orbit at one point suggested, apparently in all seriousness, that Mark Driscoll could become the Charles Spurgeon of our era.  For those who don't remember that, head over here.

Throckmorton has raised the question as to whether, depending on the contents and biblical text involved, the sermon notes were assembled by Mark Driscoll or might reflect material that was assembled by Docent Group associates who were working with and for Mars Hill Church.  

Something else about Driscoll's twitter feed of interest in light of more recent blogging on the topic of Driscoll and Mars Hill. 

https://twitter.com/PastorMark/status/1147188486748942337
Do you need to learn to honor God’s authority over all aspects of your life? This makes you a better Christian, spouse, parent, child, employee, and leader so that your life is blessed by God and a blessing to others: 


10:00 AM - 5 Jul 2019

Since Mark Driscoll has name-dropped Malachi by way of an image ... 

That's a reminder that the Docent Group writer Jed Ostoich shared in a podcast interview a while back how one of his last projects working for Mars Hill was providing research notes for Malachi.  What he shared was that he compiled a list of all the ways pastors liked to misuse Malachi in preaching and teaching and discovered, to his dismay, that all of the things that Mark Driscoll was explicitly advised not to do with the texts were what Driscoll decided to do with the texts in his preaching and teaching.  

It's something that is old news by now and is itself an interview from 2018, if memory serves, but enough time elapsed after the demise of MH that at least one Docent Group contributor who was contracted to Mars Hill said stuff on the record.  I'm not sure if you saw that but it's important to remind people that with autographed sermon notes from Driscoll you can't be 100% sure the research was stuff he did himself or had farmed out to Docent as, you've already noted, on a probably Mars Hill dime.  

https://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2019/04/no-compromise-radio-podcast-interview.html

All in all it's a little tough to imagine that "if" Mark Driscoll were a Charles Spurgeon of our time he'd offer to send signed sermon notes.  Even when I attended Mars Hill I didn't care to have sermon notes signed by any of the pastors.  

Although ... on the theme of Spurgeon ... I recall in a sermon of his about one of the Psalms Charles Spurgeon shared an adage that Caeser's horse is more proud of carrying Caeser than Caeser is to rid him.  Mark Driscoll does not seem likely to be a Caeser ... or perhaps even a Caeser's horse ... but Spurgeon's observation that there are those craven yet ambitious people who will display great cruelty in their quest to have power and prestige, even of a second-hand type that seems ... some twenty years after Mother Jones mentioned Mars Hill and Mark Driscoll that comes to mind. 

It may be historically interesting to close with a statement Mark Driscoll made in his Mars Hill sermon series on Malachi.

December 01, 2013
Pastor Mark Driscoll
http://marshill.com/media/malachi-living-for-a-legacy/where-is-my-honor
http://marshill.com/en/transcript/malachi-living-for-a-legacy/where-is-my-honor
MALACHI: LIVING FOR A LEGACY
 WHERE IS MY HONOR? 


...Mars Hill, I am convinced, utterly convinced that we are poised for the biggest year we’ve ever had. [emphasis added] And we’ve got some great leaders, and I’ve got a great honor today of sharing some of them with you. I want you to see who we’re talking about, and what they’re doing, and where they’re leading. We’ve pulled up their giving. They’re all giving, OK? They’re all serving, they’re all working, they’re all caring, they’re all trying. And you are helping them by giving generously and praying faithfully.

Incontestably 2014 was the biggest year Mars Hill ever had.

Tuesday, October 21, 2014

Now is not the time for self-congratulation, now is the time to discover what repentance actually is

In the wake of Mark Driscoll's resignation Carl Trueman wrote a blog post and from that blog post this particular paragraph stood out.

http://www.mortificationofspin.org/mos/postcards-from-palookaville/the-secret-of-big-evangelicalism-is-the-secret-of-great-comedy#.VEcofZUtCUk
...

It is interesting that the crisis finally came only when the aesthetics flipped the other way, when Driscoll and his antics became more distasteful than the words of his critics.  It is important to notice that it was not the embrace of a Unitarian prosperity teacher and that decision's obvious doctrinal significance which brought things to a head.  Rather, it was the numerous allegations of bullying and loutish behaviour which finished him off -- things that are aesthetically displeasing in the current climate.  The whistleblowers, however, are still not regarded as vindicated, despite having spoken the truth.  I suspect they can -- pardon the pun -- whistle for an apology from the Top Men or for rehabilitation by the mainstream of YRR evangelicalism.  For they can even now still be dismissed as smug (an aesthetic word if ever there was one)  or simply forgotten because, whatever the truth they spoke, they were nonetheless engaged in the activity at a point in time when the aesthetics of the marketplace made their criticisms easy to characterize as unloving and thus distasteful. 

Maybe, if only in the sense of public rhetoric, but critics to the "left" of Driscoll and critics to the "right" of Driscoll had been steadfast, largely, in their condemnation of his views about gays and women on the one hand and his cavalier talk about charismata and continuationism as indisputably true for him but not necessarily others on the other. 

The crisis finally came when intellectual property, donor designations, and real estate acquisitions came under examination.  It wasn't until Driscoll was accused on air of being a plagiarist that the box was opened.  It wasn't until it turned out that, in addition to Mark Driscoll's books featuring citation problems (a euphemism for plagiarism for our time if there has to be one), Real Marriage was gamed a #1 spot on the New York Times' bestseller list with the aid of Result Source Inc. and the Mars Hill Board of Advisors & Accountability defended the decision as "unwise" but still technically legal. 

But to the extent that Trueman's point holds (and it does, though in a limited sense) it wasn't until people got some insight into how Mark Driscoll was capable of addressing those he considered his relational or ideological adversaries or even those he considered merely obstacles that the aesthetic inversion happened.

But in a way this gets us to something else, the thing about the news coverage.
http://janetmefferdpremium.com/2014/10/16/janet-mefferd-radio-show-20141016-hr-1/
http://janetmefferdpremium.com/2014/10/16/janet-mefferd-radio-show-20141016-hr-2/

As important and needful as the contributions of Janet Mefferd and World Magazine were in highlighting the plagiarism issue and the sales rigging issue, these were pretty late developments in the history of Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill as part of the public sphere.  There had been plenty of people informally discussing various issues about Driscoll and Mars Hill for years.  The blogs are not hard to find but blogs are dismissed for many reasons, foremost being that very few bloggers practice anything like journalistic ethics (setting aside for the moment questions about how many journalists may follow journalistic ethics). 

Yet it would be hard to credit the Christian press for being late to an investigative party that had been taken up by bloggers for years and the publishing industry that either overlooked or failed to observe the citation errors rampant in Driscoll books since, it turns out, the dawn of his publishing career bear blame as well as credit.  It does no good for Christian media and journalism to have highlighted the citation problems in Mark Driscoll's books if the media empire was a vital part of what made him a star to begin with.  If Driscoll sinned the Christian publishing industry must take ownership of letting those sins happen and if some Christian journalists have proven exceptions to the rule the rule does not seem changed for it. 

But the formal press could at least be said to have striven to have verified things, to have sought official documentation.  A major reason blogs could be dismissed that Trueman seems to have picked up on is that there was always the "sour grapes" ad hominem.  It was always possible to dismiss the blogs as nothing but the work of cranks and creeps. It was possible to dismiss blogs as unofficial and generally written by those envious of a ministry success, or those antagonistic toward a particular team, or for pettiness.  It could certainly be guessed that some blogs and blog readers and commenters would seize any occasion to remark on the evils of Mark Driscoll.  If he so much as farted on stage there'd be an outcry ... and outrage is probably the cheapest emotion on the internet.

Turning to a bit more troubling potential reference points, we may very well live in a culture in which the nature of victimhood has to be parsed before we accept allegations.  Many of those who were "thrown under the bus" were participants in the culture at Mars Hill that intimidated and bullied or browbeat people into conformity.  It's tempting for people to suppose, since we'd never be that way ourselves, to look askance on some critiques from some people because, well, you know, they were kind of asking for it.  They should have known what was likely to happen.

And soldiers who voluntarily enlisted circa 2001-2004 should have somehow known what was going to happen?  Something over at Slate might tangentially illuminate one of the difficulties of requiring a spotless victim.  It gets at the difference between the allegations of sexual assault leveled against Woody Allen on the one hand and Bill Cosby on the other.

When I asked Newsweek’s Baker why she felt that the victims she spoke with had been ignored, she told me: “I think it's because they were imperfect victims, as victims so often are,” Baker told me. The two women Baker interviewed were young at the time of the assaults, but over the age of 18. More importantly, “they were ambitious aspiring actresses and models who were hanging out with an older man who said he'd make them famous.” Maybe we take their age and ambition—their self-determination, really—as an excuse to withhold our support.

That ethos of supposing that someone was "asking for it" may be a bit of a problem across the board.  There may be a way to distinguish between some foolish decisions and the colloquial working definition of "asking for it", whether we're talking about those who have been raped; those who have been traumatized by participating in a military effort they volunteered for but did not fully understand; or for those who have "drunk the kool-aid".  Wenatchee The Hatchet has come to the possibly grim theory that humans are inherently drinkers of kool-aid.  It's what we do, particularly when we most protest otherwise.  Spending a decade at Mars Hill and possibly having not imbibed enough of the "beverage" to have fatally toxic effects (yet?) doesn't really entitle a person to look down on others.  A disposition of grace should not exactly be counting what this or that person "deserves" or "had coming to them", does it? 

If we're going to discuss abuse and victims with respect to Mars Hill or other settings we will have to set aside any mythology of "perfect victims", not because there aren't perfect victims of some kind, but because we should refrain from looking down on those who, though they may have been run over by the bus, took a hand in driving the bus in some way. 

Or, to be both more tangential and more direct, now is not the time to congratulate ourselves if Mark Driscoll has proven to be a quitter and has left Mars Hill Church.  "We" didn't do anything for more than a decade.  "We" tolerated Driscoll within evangelicalism because while he may have been a "jerk" he was "our" jerk.  Progressives can't really congratulate themselves either because a mountain of controversy about intellectual property and donor designation issues weren't even on their radar.  They were busy wanting to find Mark Driscoll guilty of thought crimes that are, technically, still defended by the First Amendment than by copyright infringement.  The temptation for us, irrespective of camp, to congratulate ourselves is far too high.  If there's a time to express remorse and regret that we let things get this far to begin with that's what we should do.

There are a whole lot of men in the history of Mars Hill who not only let all of these things happened they actively voted for it, and not just in 2007.  There was 2005 when that boondoggle at 50th street was bought without having done due diligence on the zoning issues.  To some degree the whole idiotic courtship fad circa 2002-2007 was a trial run.  If a church leadership culture could cultivate a culture of self-enforcing conformity on something as silly as the courtship fad then it would be a simple matter to expect that conformity for things like bylaws.  Dissenters could be shamed, attacked, dismissed, blackballed, or otherwise argued with and then it was just a matter of the social economy of scale.  As the saying goes, the frog doesn't know the water's reached the boiling point until its too late, or something like that.  We were all the frog.

Maybe not every last one of us.  It is to the credit of at least some progressives they saw in Mark Driscoll someone who was aiming to wage the same old culture war battles through slightly modified tactics.  Whereas the old Religious Right aimed for overt and directly politicized action Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill arguably developed a more guerrilla approach, cultivating individual cels of culture warriors.  If the old Religious Right could be described as like the AIM Sidewinder or Phoenix missile system, where the missile and the tracking apparatus had to be in tandem, then perhaps the post-Driscollian approach to the culture war could be likened more to the AMRAAM system. We witnessed the development, if you will, of a kind of fire-and-forget weaponry in the culture war and that may be one of the innovations of Mars Hill within the context of Puget Sound.  Jessica Johnson has described this Mars Hillian ethos as that of the "citizen soldier".  Go read the piece because it is one of the more accurate and prescient articles written on the ethos of masculinity that was cultivated in Mars Hill Wenatchee the Hatchet has read.

While Driscoll went to Gateway as a guest it is worth bearing in mind that in the end he seems to have declined to accept the restoration/disciplinary arrangement he was offered by the church he founded.  In this respect it would seem that the most striking thing about Mark Driscoll is that so long as he gets to dish out he's fine but as soon as he has to take even a thimble-full he ... leaves.  It has been this pervasive double standard in the leadership culture of Mars Hill that has been one of the most toxic parts of the culture.  Should Mark Driscoll and Sutton Turner receive any compensation on their way out at all then they will have added a special level of hypocrisy in having spoken against "consumerism" from the rank and file while taking severance packages of the sort Sutton Turner told underlings to neither ask for nor expect to receive if THEY quit.

Jesus warned that though you should do everything the Pharisees told you to do because they have Moses' seat that you should not follow their example.  After years of preaching against Pharisees and "religious people" the sobering observation for this moment is that Mark Driscoll and Sutton Turner may have revealed themselves to be Pharisees of Pharisees.

And yet for all of us who have ever called Mars Hill home ... we're the ones who put those people there.  We're responsible, all of us.  We let it happen. We didn't just let it happen, we came to an often spirited defense of those men who by now have abandoned the church called Mars Hill, whether Driscoll or others.  Sure, we can talk now about "drinking the kool-aid" or the snake oil but for those of us who bought it what were we buying? 

It's not hard to review the ways in which Mark Driscoll got sloppy as an author, lazy as a theologian, and aggressive as a self-appointed social pundit who clearly and actively sought to become a public figure.  Now he's gone outside of Washington to regale a sea of people about the jeopardy his family has been without once considering the role his willfully inflammatory persona played in inspiring less than stable people to confront him.  Driscoll used to teach that headship means it's your responsibility even if it's not your fault and clearly Driscoll no longer seems to believe that to the extant that he's willing to shift all the blame for the disturbance of his family not on his own inflammatory persona but on people who he used to say were the sorts of people who didn't get what "playing a character" was.

But "we" need to ask ourselves why it took so long for any of the controversies of the last year to emerge.  Why did the plagiarism scandal only erupt when Janet Mefferd made an on-air accusation?  Perhaps because until established Christian media ran stories it wasn't official and it wasn't "real".  Wenatchee The Hatchet presented a back to back comparison of Real Marriage to The Wounded Heart in September 2013 and broached the possibility of copyright infringement in Driscollian work as far back as July 4, 2013.  The reactions at the time ranged from yawning indifference to "so what?" a fairly narrow spectrum.  It seems many a Christian these days refuses to even grant that intellectual property exists except as a legal fiction and an immoral one at that. 

If Driscoll was selling something (and most assuredly he's selling something) what is it?  What did we buy?  The simplest answer would be he's selling "legacy". The invitation was to be part of a legacy that positively influenced the world for Jesus.  Over time this legacy began to look less and less like the work of a community united by a common Christian confession and more and more like a community whose narrative was increasingly defined by the personal narrative of Mark Driscoll, a narrative that has collapsed into incoherence when Driscoll's public account has changed basic details he'd previously been clear about.  Additionally, Driscoll has increasingly changed both the tone and substance of the narrative in the wake of a variety of controversies. 

That Driscoll was selling a legacy isn't hard to prove.  Malachi made it explicit.  The end of God's Work, Our Witness (the fundraising film) also made it explicit.

People are getting saved more than ever. Churches are getting planted more than ever. Leaders are rising up more than ever. Opportunities are surfacing more than ever. And this is the best possible time to get onboard, to pray, give, serve, because I promise you, what comes next is the kind of thing that you’re going to tell your grandkids about.

Mars Hill has had a long history of saying "It's all about Jesus" but as N. T. Wright used to put it, it matters a great deal which Jesus we're actually talking about and that, in turn, invites everyone who currently or previously called Mars Hill home "Which Jesus are we talking about?" Were we following Christ as revealed in the scriptures? (Wenatchee The Hatchet is anything but a mythicist, so there) Or were we following a Jesus who was essentially mediated by Driscoll and markulinity?  It increasingly seems the latter was the case. 

Romans: The Righteousness of God
Adolf Schlatter, Hendrickson Publisers (c) 1995
page 40


The individual is godless if he fabricates religion in his own interest, for the sake of his own happiness. God must be worshipped for the sake of God. ... Paul emphasizes the absurdity of idolatry. It is absurd to put the individual, under the law of death, in the place of God, because in doing so it is not even the human and the animal that are worshipped, but only their likeness. This likeness is no reproduction of living beings at all, it is merely able to copy the outline of the form, the lines shaping their figure.

page 43

... it is a lie arising from selfish covetousness, if the individual makes his image to be God's image and his lust to be God's will. 
The ideal of masculinity and legacy that Mark Driscoll has made the sales pitch for his public persona and ministry has turned out to be more image than reality and that this was the case was revealed at length in the 2012 book Real Marriage. It doesn't matter whether or not the Driscoll marriage is now closer to the ideal than it was in the first decade of Mars Hill, what matters was that for the season in which the Driscolls presented themselves as happily married it now seems as though that happiness was an idol and a sham.  But then for those of us who called Mars Hill the same must also be said about the many things we considered good. 

There were real, positive goods to be had, of course, but as Christians are wont to say, idols are generally good things that are valued about the one true God. It's easy to say that about other people but for those of us who can only confess by dint of the investment of our lives that we bought what Mark Driscoll was selling we need to ask ourselves what we were buying in for.  We also need to refrain from congratulating ourselves for anything at all.  Now is not the time for self-congratulation.  While it is a shame that Mark Driscoll seems too unscrupulous and cowardly to participate and has chosen to abandon the church he took so much credit in founding, the process of repenting of being part of and contributing to what Mars Hill has become has only just begun. 

And that goes for each and every one of us who has called that community home. Wenatchee's role is relatively small and insignificant, attempting to document the history here and there.  But there needs to be more "our" to "our witness".  Wenatchee is not and doesn't desire to be any kind of leader but if there's a way to lead it's by example.  As has been said before, Wenatchee The Hatchet isn't telling anyone they "have" to leave Mars Hill, just to re:consider the narrative.  That narrative may be our collective idol. If in the end the legacy of Mars Hill were to be founded on Mark's personality and was a legacy we were building to be able to tell our grandkids about then that would make the entire legacy of Mars Hill a narrative that in itself would be an idol.  Now that Driscoll has behaved like a hired hand we need to ask ourselves why, in so many ways, we paid him for so many years.  That's not an easy or pleasant question to answer but it's one we must deal with. 

Saturday, September 20, 2014

recycled: Driscoll in December 2013 "Mars Hill, I am convinced, utterly convinced that we are poised for the biggest year we've ever had."

It is not going to be lost on readers of Wenatchee The Hatchet that Wenatchee has an eye for certain types of dramatic irony that leap across the line between "awkward" to "brutal". 

Take this observation from earlier this year
http://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2014/09/revisiting-promotion-of-2013s-call-to.html
pointing out that the church Driscoll said had died because it didn't love Jesus enough got in the hands of Mars Hill, the U-District campus that will be closing its doors, that's a rather brutal irony.

Well, it's also not yet a year later and there's another irony to consider.  Back on January 17, 2014 Wenatchee published the following material.  We'll add a little color for sake of interest.

Malachi at MH, part 3: it may not be all about the numbers but ... Driscoll is convinced 2014 will be the biggest year ever
http://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2014/01/malachi-at-mh-part-3-it-may-not-be-all.html

December 01, 2013

http://marshill.com/media/malachi-living-for-a-legacy/where-is-my-honor
http://marshill.com/en/transcript/malachi-living-for-a-legacy/where-is-my-honor

MALACHI: LIVING FOR A LEGACY
 WHERE IS MY HONOR?
...
Mars Hill, I am convinced, utterly convinced that we are poised for the biggest year we’ve ever had. [emphasis added] And we’ve got some great leaders, and I’ve got a great honor today of sharing some of them with you. I want you to see who we’re talking about, and what they’re doing, and where they’re leading. We’ve pulled up their giving. They’re all giving, OK? They’re all serving, they’re all working, they’re all caring, they’re all trying. And you are helping them by giving generously and praying faithfully.

A man that convinced that 2014 will be the biggest year Mars Hill has ever had should start sending numbers to Outreach, right?  http://marshill.com/2013/08/27/it-s-all-about-the-numbers
By Pastor Mark Driscoll
On September 12th, Outreach magazine will release its annual issue listing the 100 largest and fastest-growing churches in the nation. For the first time in a number of years, you won’t see Mars Hill Church listed.

... We will continue to count things at Mars Hill, such as how many people we have on Sundays, how many people are baptized every year, how many people are in Community Groups, how many elders we have to lovingly lead our people, how many people are giving financially, how many dollars we are bringing in and sending out, how many locations and services we have, etc. But, we will use that data internally for our church and not be publishing it much externally. [emphasis added]


Of course here at Wenatchee The Hatchet the little detail about
how the internal numbers attested to numeric decline has been discussed at some length in this blog post over here.  Internal numbers attested to a decline and the publicly available FY2013 annual report attested to a decline in attendance and a basically nominal rise in contracted members of just sixty people, and this despite adding 1,337 members.  It may be prudent from here on out to take whatever the average attendance is in an annual report and whittle the number down by one fifth that total to account for the potential counting of children.

But maybe the "biggest year" could refer to expenses and some kind of forthcoming capital campaign that they need a Capital Development Manager for. 

***
Well, 2014 may have been the biggest year Mars Hill Church has ever had for news coverage but probably not for attendance. How many of the people who were leaders in December 2013 at Mars Hill are still at Mars Hill today? 

http://pastormark.tv/2012/01/31/10-reflections-on-the-elephant-room

Pastor Mark Driscoll
Jan 31, 2012

... I’m more a prophet than a politician.

The more things come to light about Mark Driscoll and the leadership culture at Mars Hill the more difficult it is to escape the impression that Mark Driscoll is more a politician than a prophet so far as Wenatchee The Hatchet has seen.

Friday, January 17, 2014

Malachi at MH, part 3: it may not be all about the numbers but ... Driscoll is convinced 2014 will be the biggest year ever

December 01, 2013
http://marshill.com/media/malachi-living-for-a-legacy/where-is-my-honor
http://marshill.com/en/transcript/malachi-living-for-a-legacy/where-is-my-honor

MALACHI: LIVING FOR A LEGACY
 WHERE IS MY HONOR?
...


Mars Hill, I am convinced, utterly convinced that we are poised for the biggest year we’ve ever had. And we’ve got some great leaders, and I’ve got a great honor today of sharing some of them with you. I want you to see who we’re talking about, and what they’re doing, and where they’re leading. We’ve pulled up their giving. They’re all giving, OK? They’re all serving, they’re all working, they’re all caring, they’re all trying. And you are helping them by giving generously and praying faithfully.
A man that convinced that 2014 will be the biggest year Mars Hill has ever had should start sending numbers to Outreach, right? 

http://marshill.com/2013/08/27/it-s-all-about-the-numbers
By Pastor Mark Driscoll
On September 12th, Outreach magazine will release its annual issue listing the 100 largest and fastest-growing churches in the nation. For the first time in a number of years, you won’t see Mars Hill Church listed.

... We will continue to count things at Mars Hill, such as how many people we have on Sundays, how many people are baptized every year, how many people are in Community Groups, how many elders we have to lovingly lead our people, how many people are giving financially, how many dollars we are bringing in and sending out, how many locations and services we have, etc. But, we will use that data internally for our church and not be publishing it much externally. [emphasis added]

Of course here at Wenatchee The Hatchet the little detail about how the internal numbers attested to numeric decline has been discussed at some length in this blog post over here.  Internal numbers attested to a decline and the publicly available FY2013 annual report attested to a decline in attendance and a basically nominal rise in contracted members of just sixty people, and this despite adding 1,337 members.  It may be prudent from here on out to take whatever the average attendance is in an annual report and whittle the number down by one fifth that total to account for the potential counting of children.

But maybe the "biggest year" could refer to expenses and some kind of forthcoming capital campaign that they need a Capital Development Manager for. 

Malachi at MH, part 2: not counting but spotting the one out of sixty-four

December 01, 2013
http://marshill.com/media/malachi-living-for-a-legacy/where-is-my-honor
http://marshill.com/en/transcript/malachi-living-for-a-legacy/where-is-my-honor

MALACHI: LIVING FOR A LEGACY
WHERE IS MY HONOR?
Tracking What Leaders Give

Where your treasure is, your heart is. And God looks down and says, “This isn’t just cheap; this is evil.” And it starts with church leaders, and so let me talk real plainly. Many churches don’t even track the giving of the leaders, and then the leaders are encouraging the people to be generous, but nobody’s checking to see if the leaders are generous. I would say that’s evil.

Now, I’m not going through checking every single leader, but I’m making sure that every leader, particularly those on paid staff and eldership, give. Out of the 64 elders, 63 are generous. One, not sure about, we’ll follow up with. Sometimes there are extenuating circumstances; something happened. We don’t want to be legalistic about this, but we do want to say, “Before we ask anybody to do anything, we want to make sure that the leaders are setting a good example.”

One out of sixty-four elders, eh?  Not that Driscoll's personally going through checking every single leader, there's probably a department for that. :)

Malachi at Mars Hill, part 1, Driscoll states in 2013 there weren't kids at the start of MHC, in 2006 stated co-founding pastors were good fathers

From a sermon preached by Mark Driscoll. December 01, 2013
http://marshill.com/media/malachi-living-for-a-legacy/where-is-my-honor
http://marshill.com/en/transcript/malachi-living-for-a-legacy/where-is-my-honor

MALACHI: LIVING FOR A LEGACY
WHERE IS MY HONOR?


Here’s where we’re at: Recently, 10,177 adults in attendance across Mars Hill. Fifteen churches, five states. We count people because people count. We count people because people count, and it’s not just numbers, it’s faces and names. There are also almost 2,500 kids, right? Can we say, “Praise God”? We like kids. When we started Mars Hill 17 years ago, there wasn’t even a children’s ministry—because there were no children. [emphasis added] People are coming in, getting saved, getting baptized, getting married, getting pregnant. Ideally, that’s the order, OK?

Remember that the FY2013 annual report listed the average attendance as 12,329.  Sutton Turner's July 2013 update mentioned the following:
* Average weekly attendance: 11,151 (8,959 adults and 2,191 kids)  [emphasis added]
  • Contributing households: 3,394 (an estimated 32% of adults at Mars Hill Church gave during July)
  • Average giving per adult: $38.33 (higher than projected)
  • Total giving: $1.61M (target: $1.48M)

  • So if there were 10,177 adults and almost 2,500 kids that would get you in the zone of the 12,329 average, wouldn't it?  It's worth noting that Turner's July 2013 update bracketed out the slightly less than 9,000 adults and the slightly less than 2,200 children.  This raises a question of whether or not it would be prudent to take whatever the average attendance is stated to be and simply subtracting one fifth of that amount to account for the children. 

    Speaking of children, that bit about how when Mars Hill started 17 years ago there were no children, might be hyperbolic?

    Confessions of a Reformission Rev
    Mark Driscoll, Zondervan
    ISBN-13:978-0-310-27016-4
    ISBN-10:03-10-27016-2

    page 54

    ... The church started as an idea I shared with Lief Moi and Mike Gunn. Lief is a descendant of Genghis Khan and his dad was a murderer, and Mike is a former football player. They proved to be invaluable, except for the occasional moments when they would stand toe-to-toe in a leadership meeting, threatening to beat the Holy Spirit out of each other. Both men were older than I and had years of ministry experience, and they were good fathers, loving husbands, and tough.  [emphasis added]...

    What's that again about no kids?  If Driscoll from 2006 testifies that Gunn and Moi were good fathers how can a person take seriously the claim of Driscoll in 2013 that there were no kids in the beginning of Mars Hill?  Again, perhaps Driscoll's 2013 statement is just some rhetorical, hyperbolic flourish.  Or let's propose that none of the Gunn and Moi children were so young that they couldn't participate in the earliest services at Mars Hill.  How about that?  But to say there were no children at Mars Hill Church in the plainest, most literal form, is one of the most readily disprovable assertions about the history of Mars Hill in the history of Mars Hill by Mark Driscoll's own published account.

    POSTSCRIPT: 01-18-2014

    and ... from page 145

    Jamie [Munson] came to Seattle at the age of nineteen, drinking, smoking pot, and having spent most of his life driving around in a maturity cul de sac, listening to Bon Jovi albums in the great nation of Montana. In Seattle, he lived with his sister and brother-in-law, Jen and Phil, who had been with the church from the beginning. They were the first couple who showed up with kids when we were in our core phase. [emphasis added]

    So apparently in addition to the Moi and Gunn kids not existing Phil Smidt's kids don't count now, too when Driscoll says there was no children's ministry at Mars Hill at the start because there were no kids at Mars Hill Church.  Fascinating.