Of necessity a podcast can only be so long. Mike Cosper recently alluded to Mark Driscoll regarding women who wanted to befriend his wife as threats, without necessarily quoting Driscoll directly in Episode 8 of The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill.
For those who want to know what Cosper
was alluding to, here you go:
February 5, 2008
Pastor Mark
Driscoll
Part 2: The
Devil
49:58
How about this
one? Idle gossip and busybodying. 1 Timothy 5:11-15. THIS one is amazing.
Ladies this one is especially for you. Some of you say, "Oh, it's not
me." Yeah, it is. 1 Timothy 5:11-15, "but refuse to enroll younger
widows for when their passions draw them away from Christ they desire to marry
and so incur condemnation for having abandoned their former faith.
Besides that they learn to be idlers"
Women learn how
to make a lot of free time. Going about from house to house. Well now it would
be from email to email and from phone call to phone call. Technology makes idle
busybodying far more effective than ever.
And not only
idlers but also gossips. They like to talk about people. How are you doing?
What are you doing? And this isn't sisterly accountability, this is "I
need to know what everybody's doing because I like to know what everybody's
doing and then I can tell other people what other people are doing and then I
can say, `Hey, you need to pray for so-and-so.' and I can make it sound spiritual
so that when I'm gossiping and busy-bodying I'm doing so in a way that seems
really Jesus-like." And busybodies, they need to know what everybody's
doing. They need to know what everybody's doing, saying what they should not.
So I would have younger widows marry, bear children and manage their household,
right? Stay busy, and give the adversary (that's Satan) no occasion for
slander. For some have already strayed after Satan. Hmm.
A woman who's a
gossip and a busybody; a woman who has to put her nose in everybody's business
and knows what everybody's going on; know what they're doing, she's working
with Satan. Now I know most women would say: "No, no, no. I'm not Satanic,
I'm concerned. I'm not Satanic, I'm an intercessor. I'm a prayer warrior. I'm
not Satanic, I'm an accountability partner. I'm not Satanic, I'm a
concerned friend." Okay, you're a Satanic intercessory prayer
warrior accountability partner concerned friend but just start the whole list
with "Satanic" so that we don't misunderstand your job description.
Now there's a
difference between someone inviting you into their life and saying, "I
want to be friends, I want to have an accountable relationship." and
you pushing yourself into everyone's life, okay? I'll tell you, in the
history of Mars Hill, I mean, I have had to put up a firewall, a moat, guard
dogs, and a high wall with barbed wire on the top, and snipers behind it,
around my wife. There are certain women who, they just need to know what Grace
is doing and they are determined, they say things like, uh, "Hey, we need
to have dinner with your family." [slight chuckle] No you don't.
"Hey, we need to have coffee." No you don't. "Hey, phone
number." What? Nope. "Email." Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope.
Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope.
"Oh, come
on." Nope.
"But I
thought you were our pastor."
I am and my
first lesson is to tell you you're Satanic.
"Oh, come
on, in our last church the pastor's wife [sob] she was my best friend and I got
to talk to her all the time."
Well, she was
Satanic, too. Give me her number, I'll call her and tell her. We'll help
her out.
You ladies KNOW
these women. Right? How many of you ladies know these women? They will try
first with the hyper-spiritual, "Oh, praise the Lord! I'd love to pray for
you. Let's get together. Let's do Christian community. Let's go to heart."
If you decline, then they emotionally manipulate, [inhales, sobbing voice],
"I thought we were friends, I thought you loved me. I don't have anybody
to talk to." It's all manipulation. It's FEMALE manipulation. Some
of you ladies, right now? You think, "I can't believe he said that."
It's all true. It's Satanic, Satanic.
Paul says,
"Don't be a busybody, stay busy." Right? Your husband, your kids,
your family, your home, Jesus Christ. You got things to do.
Busybodies stay
busy inserting themselves into everyone else's life. In some churches there are
certain women, if you call them, they'll know everything that's going on
because, somehow, they know everything. There's a difference between being a
woman who is invited into someone's life for friendship, prayer and
accountability, and a woman who emotionally manipulates and is pushy and is
sometimes hyperspiritual and demanding and forces herself in because she's a
drama queen and has to be at the center of all the drama. That is a Satanic
woman.
You need to
believe that and the worst thing you can do is accomodate her. Okay, we'll have
you over for dinner once. And then, the next month, it's "Okay, buddy, we
haven't been together in a month. We need to get together again. I'm sure a lot
has happened in your life and I don't know what it is and I need to know
because I need to know everything. I have a God complex of omniscience. I want
to know everything about everybody." And what you find with these people,
Paul says, they tend to be gossips, meaning you don't just talk to them, then
they talk to other people. "Well, did you know their marriage is
struggling? Did you know that she's depressed? Did you know that
she's post-partum? Do you know that, sexually, her husband's
impotent?" These are the conversations I've heard in this building.
Really?
Sometimes
womens' ministry is the cesspool that this kind of activity flourishes in. Some
have asked, "Why don't you have womens' ministry?" The answer is we
do, but it's, you have to be very careful, it's like juggling knives. You put
the wrong women in charge of womens' ministry, the drama queen, the gossip
mama, all of a sudden all the women come together, tell her everything, she
becomes the pseudo-elder quasi-matriarch; she's got the dirt on everybody
and sometimes the women all get together to just rip on their husbands in the
name of prayer requests. Happens all the time. Happens all the time. We have
worked very hard so that the women who teach here are like Wendy Alsup who I
really love and appreciate and respect. She's not like that. It is not that no
woman should lead, that no woman should teach, that no woman should in a
position of authority over other women under the authority of their
husband, Jesus and the elders it's just that the wrong women tend to want it.
The wrong women tend to want it and they tend to want it for the wrong reasons.
And sometimes it's the humble woman, who isn't fighting to be the center of
drama, control and power; who doesn't have to be up front; she's usually the
one who is most capable and qualified.
And for you
single men as well I would say be very, very careful because if you're on staff
at Mars Hill (everything I say sounds terrible, this will just be added
to the pile) there are certain women who will tell you, "I want to marry a
pastor." Really? You should want to marry a Christian who loves Jesus,
loves you, loves your kids should God give them to you. I've lectured enough
Bible colleges and seminaries, the young women who come up and say, "I
want to marry a pastor" my immediate default question is, "Are
you a gossip? Are you a busybody? Are you a drama queen?" "No. No, I
feel called to serve the Lord." Well, you can serve the Lord without
being called to be a pastor's wife in fact, take it from me, it's easier to be
a woman and serve the Lord than being married to a pastor. You
single guys, you gotta be careful, man. There are some women, they want
to marry the pastor so they can be the center of power, authority; they can be
the first lady; everybody knows them, everybody wants to be their friend,
everybody wants to tell them everything; and they can be the center of all the
drama. Run for your life. Run for your life. Run for your life. It's Satanic.
But there was another, weirder and deeper and creepier paradox about
Mark Driscoll bloviating about gossip as the vice of women. Just how much personal information about
women was Mark volunteering in these hours of spiritual warfare instruction? It
sure seemed like he was luridly forthcoming about intimate details of traumas
in the lives of women the like of which he rarely ever disclosed about
himself. It began to seem there was a
severe double standard with Mark Driscoll about the level of material he would
divulge about women as a ministry illustration compared to what he was willing
to divulge about himself.
After so many years of Mark Driscoll regaling members about how happily
married he was the claims in Real Marriage were unsettling, even disturbing.
http://download.marshill.se/files/2004/02/08/20040208_1-timothy-3-1-7_sd_audio.mp3
Part
6:1 Timothy 3:1-7
Preached
February 08, 2004
...
I love my wife. I've been totally faithful to her. I'm a one-woman man. I met
her at 17. I married her at 21. I've been chasing her ever since. I'm
quicker than she is, so I'm happily married. You know, things are good. I
just am. I love my wife. I adore my wife. I enjoy my wife, you know? ...’
Real Marriage
Mark and Grace Driscoll
Copyright (c) 2012 by On Mission, LLC
Thomas Nelson
ISBN 978-1-4002-0383-3
Page 7
Neither Grace nor I was a virgin when we met, and before long we were dating and sleeping together, which continued even after she went off to college while I was finishing high school. [emphasis added]
page 9-10
To be honest, fornicating was fun. I liked fornicating. To stop fornicating
was not fun. But eventually Grace and I stopped fornicating, got engaged, and
were married between our junior and senior years of college.
I assumed that once we were married we would simply pick up where we left
off sexually and make up for last time. After all, we were committed Christians
with a relationship done God's way. But God's way was a total
bummer. My previously free and fun girlfriend was suddenly my frigid
and fearful wife. She did not undress in front of me, required the lights to be
off on the rare occasions we were intimate, checked out during sex, and
experienced a lot of physical discomfort because she was tense. [emphasis
added]
...
Before long I was bitter against God and Grace. It seemed to me as if they had conspired to trap me. I had always been the "good guy" who turned down women for sex. In my twisted logic, since I had only slept with a couple of women I was in relationships with, I had been holy enough, and God owed me. I felt God had conned me by telling me to marry Grace, and allowed Grace to rule over me since she was controlling our sex life. [emphasis added] I loved Grace, but in the bedroom I did not enjoy her and wondered how many years I could white-knuckle fidelity. ... We desperately needed help but didn't know where to turn. Bitterness and condemnation worsened.
Win Your War: Fight
in the Realm You Don't See for Freedom in the One You Do
Mark and Grace
Driscoll
Charisma House
(2019)
ISBNs 9781629996257
and 9781629996264
Pages 87-89
On our first date, I
(Mark) was nervous. We were teenagers in high school, and I was smitten with
Grace and knew her dad was a pastor. Driving in my first car, a 1956 Chevy I
bought with money I earned at my first job, I had to work up the courage to
park the car and meet her parents. Grace’s family lived on a cul-de-sac, and I
drove the loop many times until I finally mustered up the courage and pulled
into their driveway.
Years later, after we
had been married and had a few children, I got stuck on yet another cul-de-sac.
I had not forgiven something in our past. Grace had apologized and repented,
but I nursed my pain and continued to hold a grudge. Years had passed, but I
continued to pull the painful past into the present. Like a relational
archaeologist I would dig up the issue over and over, revealing that I had not
forgiven her nor buried it with Jesus’ death for our sin. As a result our
disagreements fell into a well-worn groove with both of us driving in circles until
we were exasperated.
Before Grace and I
met we both had unhealthy, unholy, and unhappy dating experiences. As a result,
when we started building a relationship in high school, we were both a bit beat
up. I did not fully realize it at the time, but I made an inner vow to myself
as a non-Christian. Grace also had made inner vows that the enemy used to form
a wedge between us.
Within a few years I
came to Christ and we were getting married as Christians while still in
college. The first years of our marriage were fun. We were broke, but glad to
be together. Before long we had planted a church and welcomed our first child
into the world. Soon the other kids came as well.
We loved each other,
but there was something between us. We were faithful to one another, studied
the Bible, served in ministry, and tried to grow in our relationship with
Christ, but we would very quickly get stuck. This happened numerous times, and
when it did, we would go to the same place emotionally over and over and over.
Resentment continued to build and cause hurt.
When we were kids,
Grace had unknowingly violated that inner vow I had made as a non-Christian. As
adults that ow from years prior was causing pain and problems for us both. God
helped us work through this challenge and we’ll share how later in this
chapter.
Confessions of a Reformission Rev
Mark Driscoll,
Zondervan 2006
ISBN-13:
978-0-310-27016-4
ISBN-10:0-310-27016-2
page 122-123
My family also
started coming under spiritual attack. At one point, my daughter Ashley, who was only a few years old, started
having a really bad attitude. [emphasis added] Despite days of repeated discipline
her behavior did not improve, and I was befuddled as to why. Late one
night I went in to check on her, and she was still awake. I asked her why she
was not sleeping, and she began to cry but refused to tell me. I prayed over
her, and eventually she told me that for days she had not slept because
"bad angels" kept showing up in her room, saying bad things about
Jesus and pulling her hair when she tried to sleep. They scared her by
saying that if she told me, they would kill me. She had been acting up
for a few days because she was sleep deprived, and I had been disciplining her
sternly because I was worn out and on edge. I broke down and wept openly
for the first time I can remember in my adult life and held my daughter,
praying over her and repenting to God for allowing the Enemy to drive a wedge
between my daughter and me.
... During this difficult season, I was burned-out, overworked, out of
shape, stressed, and had picked up a nervous twitch in my eye along with
ongoing acid reflux and high blood pressure. I was not sleeping much, and my
sleep was often interrupted due to stress that kept me awake, thinking. I would also often wake up after a prophetic dream or spiritual attack
to pray strategically, which only contributed to the fatigue. [emphasis added] But thanks to growing insights on how to win spiritual battles, I
was optimistic that we would weather the storm and that the church would
survive.
So during this period a few years after Ashley's
birth Mark Driscoll was run ragged physically and emotionally. The church
had been booted from its older location and was essentially being run from the
Driscoll house for about two years in a row. This is mentioned, perhaps,
in the fundraising film God's
Work, Our Witness. That's the set-up of physical and mental
limits. This would have been well before the Earl building or getting
what has now become the Ballard campus. So by Mark Driscoll's account his
health was at a low ebb during this period when he and Grace were hosting the
church from their house. All of that background leads up to ... :
from page 122-123 (continued)
Then I had the worst experience of my whole
life.
I went to bed one night hoping to get caught
up on sleep. In the middle of the night, I had
a prophetic type of dream that was like other prophetic dreams I had previously
except it did not include Scripture that clarified its meaning, because it was
from Satan. I cannot go into great detail
about the dream because it would impugn the character of someone else.
Something horrendous happened to this person that I was not present to witness.
But my dream was the equivalent of a horrifying film that showed me every
gruesome detail of the worst day of their life. I was not present for the sin
they committed, but I told them about my dream later and they confirmed the very
graphic details that I saw.
The dream was so vivid that I felt sick and woke up just in time to run
into the bathroom and throw up in the toilet. I went downstairs and spent the
rest of the night sitting on the couch, staring blankly into the dark and
asking God to allow me to do anything but be a pastor. I just wanted to be done
with ministry and do something, anything, that would not kill me before I
turned thirty. [emphasis added]
For weeks, I watched the mental film every
night as I tried to sleep. I knew it was an accusation but could not get it to
stop, and so the torment continued night after night (Rev 12:10b). Not knowing
what to do, I withdrew from God and my wife and threw myself into my work
to keep my mind occupied with something else. I sometimes worked all
night just so that I would not have to go to bed and watch the nightmare yet
again.
Then we can look at the following passage from Mark and Grace Driscoll’s 2012 book:
Real Marriage
Mark and Grace
Driscoll
Thomas Nelson
(c) 2012 by On
Mission, LLC
ISBN
978-1-4002-0383-3
ISBN
978-1-4041-8352-0
page 11-12
... One night, as we approached the birth of our first child, Ashley, and the launch of our church, I had a dream in which I saw some things that shook me to my core. I saw in painful detail Grace sinning sexually during a senior trip she took after high school when we had just started dating. It was so clear it was like watching a film--something I cannot really explain but the kind of revelation I sometimes receive. I woke up, threw up and spent the rest of the night sitting on the couch, praying, hoping it was untrue, and waiting for her to wake up so I could ask her. I asked her if it was true, fearing the answer. Yes, she confessed, it was. [emphasis added] Grace started weeping and trying to apologize for lying to me, but I honestly don't remember the details of the conversation, as I was shell-shocked. Had I known about this sin, I would not have married her. But God told me to marry Grace, I loved her, I had married her as a Christian, we were pregnant, and I was a pastor with a church-plant with young people who were depending on me.
In
his 2006 account Mark Driscoll even referred to the nightmare as some kind of
satanic attack and not some kind of prophetic dream of the sort he said he’d
had.
http://marshill.com/media/spiritual-warfare/the-devil
February 5, 2005
Mark Driscoll
Part 2, The
Devil
about 34:10
The way
bitterness works, as well, is bitter people are prone to blame their bitterness
on the person that they perceive offended them. Amy Carmichael. she's a
missionary, her little book If, she gives this great analogy she says:
If I have a
glass filled with sweet water and I bump it, what comes out? Sweet water. She
says if I have a glass of bitter water and I bump it, what comes out?
Bitter water.
All that sin
against us, perceived sin against us, or bitter envy and selfish ambition by us
reveal is what's already in our heart. The bitterness is IN there, and someone
or some thing spilled it. And bitter people will say, "Look what you made
me do. You made me sin, you made me gossip, you made me angry, you made me
bitter, you made me fight, you made me run into conflict, you made me sin in my
anger. Look what you made me do." And the answer is, "I didn't make
you do anything. That was what was in your heart." I just bumped you.
about 45:00
http://marshill.com/media/spiritual-warfare/the-devil
February 5, 2005
Mark Driscoll
Part 2, The
Devil
… (01:09)
And my experience has been that those who
really do have demonic activity, warfare, opposition, tend to be people who
love and serve Jesus and are called for his kingdom purposes. So it seems very
simple but you think about it. Let's say you're a general and you run an army.
You are going to send your soldiers after those who are most strategic on your
opposing team. If somebody's already on the field of battle and near death
you're not gonna send a soldier to waste a bullet to eliminate them. They're
gonna die.
There are others in life who are
self-destructing. They're killing themselves with drugs, alcohol, sex. The
world and the flesh is doing its work. There's no need to send a demon after
them. They're gonna self-destruct. What I tend to find is people who struggle
with the demonic, not entirely but often, are those who really do love Jesus.
We see Jesus being tempted and opposed by Satan and demons regularly in his
life and ministry. We see him [Satan] attacking Adam and Eve. What I find curious in that, as well, most
of my demonic counseling work has been with women. I can't explain that. Paul
says that women are the weaker vessel. Maybe that's the case. It says that
women are more easily deceived. I know that most feminists don't like those
verses. If that's true then it means that those women who don't like those
verses are deceived [chuckles] which is kinda funny. And within that I find that
it's interesting to me, just an observation, that Satan didn't even show up and
attack Adam until he was married. [emphasis
added] That sometimes, I believe, Satan really loves to attack families,
Christian couples that are called for ministry.
…
8. We have a hard time not seeing our vows as
equal to God’s laws.
Everyone
should submit to God’s laws, but no one is obligated to submit to our vows. We
are not God and are urged, “Do not add to his words or he may rebuke.” When we
elevate our vow alongside God’s Word, we demand that other people obey us like
God.
9. We punish people who break our inner vows.
10. An inner
vow opens the door to the enemy
The
inner vow is a entry point for demonic harm because the vow is in some form or
fashion a lie. The Bible is clear that just like a dad has kids, Satan is the “father
of lies.” The lie under an inner vow is that it will protect you. Like all lies
this is demonic and delivers the opposite of what it promises.
In light of the demonic danger of inner vows, it is not surprising that the Bible warns against them. Jesus says, “I say to yu, Do not take an oath at all . … Do not take an oath. … Let what you say be simply `Yes’ or `No’; anything more than this comes from evil.” …
So inner vows are demonic entry points and Mark Driscoll had an inner vow. He nursed bitterness against Grace for years and has taught that choosing bitterness over forgiveness is choosing Satan over the Gospel. Okay, who can answer the question of what Mark Driscoll’s inner vow was based on nothing but what he’s written in his books? Anyone? What did Grace Driscoll say or do that could have unknowingly broken the terms of Mark Driscoll’s inner vow, whatever the vow was?
Cumulatively we learn a bit about Mark Driscoll because he’s told the world so much about himself but the level of disclosure about women is striking. It is as though in the name of being a counselor Driscoll sees himself as having the liberty to share far more intimate and even salacious details about the women he has met, up to and including his wife, than about himself. There are exceptions, perhaps, in Death By Love but I mean to discuss those accounts some other time.
But it turns out, in fact, I have to mention Death By Love because near the end of Episode 8 of The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill Jen Smidt shared something that reminded me of the book. The first thing that sprung to mind was that though the book was published in 2008 with Gerry Breshears as co-author Mark Driscoll recounted that he had basically finished Death By Love back in 2006.
http://www.theresurgence.com/md_blog_2006-09-19_its_always_something_at_mars_hill_church
For ten years we have gotten virtually nothing but very positive media coverage. I've worked hard behind the scenes to make sure we were presented as we are and not used for some subversive agenda. To date, we've gotten good press from ABC Television, NPR, Mother Jones magazine, Christianity Today, and others.
…
We are still giving 10 percent of our money to help lead the Acts 29 Church Planting Network. I’m still writing a lot, including a book titled Death by Love on the subject of the cross that is nearing completion. This week we did a free training about preaching for nearly a hundred pastors in our area and the guys ate a lot of meat for lunch. We captured my lecture on preaching and will vodcast it in chunks here on this site free of charge, as always, before too long. We’ve also upgraded our cameras to high-def so that the free stuff we do give away through Resurgence and Mars Hill will be as high quality as possible in an effort to help equip as many people around the world as possible on our dime.
…
58:53
Part of what’s grotesque about the story came afterward. It started with a letter she received from Mark, a thoughtful, heartfelt pastoral letter about her story and about the power of grace in her life. Then, about a year later, without having asked or even told her, she found out he’d included it as a chapter in a book.
For years I have been nagged by a question about whether or not anyone mentioned in Death By Love had a chance to give their consent for their stories to be shared. Mark Driscoll was clear the people were from Mars Hill, and he may have changed names, but I was at Mars Hill from about 1999 through 2009 in terms of attendance and a couple of the stories sounded like friends of mine and I couldn’t shake the sense that Mark was using the stories of friends and fellow believers as grist for a mostly pointless book about atonement theories? Why pointless? Because there are countless books that explain atonement theories that don’t spill the most intimate secrets and traumas of church members shared in pastoral counseling sessions just to make a point. After hearing Episode 8 it was hard for me to shake the impression that the book for which Smidt’s story might have been used was potentially if not probably Death By Love.
One of the things that has become clearer across Driscoll’s books and sermons is that however much he and his fans tout his eagerness to defend women from traumatic experiences a significant part of his brand as a celebrity preacher has come from leveraging stories of the trauma of women to position himself as a guru capable of saving them. He has made a point of making sure when it comes to emotional and relational vulnerability and confession the shoe is basically never on the other foot. He might allude to how he dreaded female manipulation but has not been forthcoming about why he would fear it or when that fear began. He might say that gossip is a unique sin to women while peddling books in which his tales of pastoral counseling and delivering people of demonic oppression traffics in what he would call, from anyone but himself, unbridled gossip.
1 comment:
I am sure that for Mark, a women's ministry did feel like juggling knives. Except the knives weren't satanic knifes. They were innocent observations about him, Grace, and their warped views and relationship that he didn't want Grace or himself to hear. He didn't want anyone's un-invited assessment of the way he was doing things to fight or push against his NPD fantasy of the way things needed to be in his mind. Mark didn't want anyone to exposed the gaslighting that he had his wife, family, and the entire church believing.
Just as he flippantly accused a woman of heresy for suggesting the Mark might need some older men to push back a little so he can call 'satanic' any woman who might want to push back against the dysfunction of his marriage and family life. Those knives are sharp and to be avoided at all cost. Better gaslight further and label them satanic from the pulpit.
Good word, WTH. Thorough and insightful as always.
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