the last TMZ post a before and after 3-26-15 and 3-27-15

It has been noted here and there that the content of Craig Gross' "Last TMZ Post" has changed within the last seven days. 

Without discussing that content, presented are a before and after set of screen captures.

March 26, 2015

then March 27, 2015

UPDATE
3-31-2015
0800pm

The text of the earlier version:
Last TMZ Post
http://www.craiggross.com/post/114672927831/last-tmz-post
Moving on from this Mars Hill drama. Here is my last post on this and then I will let the lawyers, reporters, bloggers and rest of the world make their own decisions on this.

We bought a email list and sent out an email to that list. Looking back, I learned that whether that list was stolen or not, we can’t buy a list and then send people emails. This is why companies send the list out on your behalf so it is not “spammed”. We were sold a list and told we could do that but after the fact realized that is not what we should of done. Lessons learned and we know now not to ever buy a list again. I apologize that I sent an unsolicited email to this list.

I emailed the whole list and told them I bought the list, I posted that on twitter and posted that on my blog. We are 100% forth coming in the fact that we bought the list from a lead sent to us from Justin Dean that the list was available.

The content of the email to the number of Mark Driscoll supporters that were on that list was the wrong content. Like I was told by a close friend of Mark’s “nothing in that email was untruthful”, but looking back it was the wrong content to send to that group. Hindsight is 20/20. I can’t apologize for the content of that email but I can admit that looking back we could have written a better email.

Many people won’t agree with the fact that we bought the list and we sent out an email and I totally understand. As of today, here is what has happened since.

The website churchleaderslist.com has been taken down.

Justin Dean took down his personal blog and his personal twitter after issuing an apology for being involved.

I have talked to bloggers, Christianity Today and a lawyer about this matter. The lawyer represents all the Mars Hill assets and let me know that this matter is being looked into. I have been willing to talk to anyone who calls me about this and will never “issue statements” and then not pick up the phone or not be available.

Justin Dean’s name is registered on every Mars Hill website domain as the owner. Justin Dean’s name is registered on a ton of Mark Driscoll personal website domains including Driscoll’s wife’s domain URL. Justin does not work alone. Justin works for Mark. Justin has covered up for Mark for 5 years and tried to put a positive spin and take the fall where he can for Mark. I wrote in my email that Mark Driscoll didn’t have accountability and that got him in trouble. I still believe that and I am not kicking a guy when he is down. All the facts point that these two work together still and they are still involved in slimy operations. Mark and Justin are not available for comments and I hope the people sorting all this out will not continue to give these guys a break and will expose this.

I said in my prior post, I did not want to get involved in this Mars Hill drama. Yes, I mentioned Mark in an email and I bought a Mars Hill list but the drama I am talking about is all that has been exposed since sending that. That now involves a possible police report on stolen property, deceit, lies and public statements and the press. That is not what I signed up for. That is a distraction for us and not what I am interested in. So, moving forward… You can read about what unfolds on other websites and we will get back to what we do.

**For those of you who have been trying to get our website taken down, our email provider cancelled, the death threats and violent emails.. we are not going to respond any more to that noise.

and the later version (how it looks now)

Moving on from this Mars Hill drama. Here is my last post on this and then I will let the lawyers, reporters, bloggers and rest of the world make their own decisions on this.

We bought a email list and sent out an email to that list. Looking back, I learned that whether that list was stolen or not, we can’t buy a list and then send people emails. This is why companies send the list out on your behalf so it is not “spammed”. We were sold a list and told we could do that but after the fact realized that is not what we should of done. Lessons learned and we know now not to ever buy a list again. I apologize that I sent an unsolicited email to this list.

I emailed the whole list and told them I bought the list, I posted that on twitter and posted that on my blog. We are 100% forth coming in the fact that we bought the list from a lead sent to us from Justin Dean that the list was available.

The content of the email to the number of Mark Driscoll supporters that were on that list was the wrong content. Like I was told by a close friend of Mark’s “nothing in that email was untruthful”, but looking back it was the wrong content to send to that group. Hindsight is 20/20. I can’t apologize for the content of that email but I can admit that looking back we could have written a better email.
Many people won’t agree with the fact that we bought the list and we sent out an email and I totally understand. As of today, here is what has happened since.

The website churchleaderslist.com has been taken down.

Justin Dean took down his personal blog and his personal twitter after issuing an apology for being involved.

I have talked to bloggers, Christianity Today and a lawyer about this matter. The lawyer represents all the Mars Hill assets and let me know that this matter is being looked into. I have been willing to talk to anyone who calls me about this and will never “issue statements” and then not pick up the phone or not be available.

**For those of you who have been trying to get our website taken down, our email provider cancelled, the death threats and violent emails.. we are not going to respond any more to that noise.

Craig Gross writes more about the list/spam situation "Last TMZ Post", and a new development on the Dean/MCA side (something's down)

there was this, earlier
http://www.craiggross.com/post/114475804871/my-run-in-with-buying-an-email-list

and there has since been this
http://www.craiggross.com/post/114672927831/last-tmz-post

Earlier in the week Wenatchee The Hatchet wondered if it was possible the spam list was comprised of materials that would have been available to Resurgence Publishing Inc.  Selling lists is common practice.  Well, no, that got cleared up by Craig Gross's clarifying statements.  And we had a visitor to testify on the Resurgence Publishing side that it (and by specific extension Sutton Turner) had nothing to do with the recent spam list sale.

So that pretty much leaves the multiple unnamed parties that may or may not have been given some kind of list of contacts by somebody and for the time being Justin Dean's gone silent.

For sake of review of what Gross wrote earlier:
I found it interesting that as soon as I posted this that Justin Dean posted a blog on his website that he somewhat apologized for distributing the list to me. Lets be clear, he sold the list to me. He didn’t broker a transaction. He sold me the list along with several other people who paid $1350-$1500 for the list.

I asked the lawyer that was in charge selling the assets for 100k earlier in 2014 and he said that no one has purchased the rights to sell these assets yet.

I found it interesting that on December 16th the WHOIS registrar data has been updated for over 100 websites that Mars Hill once owned and now they state that are owned by who else but… Justin Dean.

But at the moment it's not clear who actually sold the list.  Dean seems to have said he was party to it but was not the person who brokered the sale, while Craig Gross' understanding seems to be that Dean directed Gross to a resource at which a list could be bought.  It seems to be the understanding of Gross Dean sold him the list.

At the moment Justin Dean's twitter and his website is still in maintenance mode.

Lately removed was the March 19, 2015 2:13pm plug for Church Leaders List presented earlier this week at Wenatchee The Hatchet.

behold, the ad ... it's almost like somebody came along and said, "I know, how about a magic trick? I will make this advert disappear." 

Ta-da!

It's ... gone.

The question of who was given the list by Justin Dean (at least by Justin Dean's account earlier this week) that could have sold the information has not been answered and for the time being it isn't clear the question ever will be answered.  I.e. "How Did Church Leaders List Get Mars Hill Church’s Email List?" may not get an answer.

reactions to the Craig Gross spam and the gossip statement, cross-referencing Craig Gross' post-Driscoll-resignation statement with Driscoll's 2012 pre-emptive statements in the wake of the Brierley interview publication

One of the things that has been mentioned is that Gross' email was, basically, gross.  There have been complaints that it took advantage of a man down and out to make a point and promote something.  Having read the spam, it was fairly tacky but perhaps having spent so very many years connected to the culture of Mars Hill it's simply impossible to believe that what Craig Gross wrote seems all that troubling.

After all ... it's not like Driscoll didn't have a history of inciting some controversy on social media. Back in 2006 Mark Driscoll used the occasion of Ted Haggard's fall to sound off on his own concerns. Because robots.txt still applies to things resurgence:

http://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2014/07/revisiting-that-2006-post-that.html
The full text of the notorious Ted Haggard-occasioned blog post is at that link above.  Driscoll went on to apologize for the implication some people read into the content that he had said or implied anything about Gayle Haggard.  Driscoll didn't really address the Haggards (a point he insisted upon in an interview with Justin Brierley, if memory serves, which is something we'll get to presently).  What Driscoll did do, however, was use the incident of scandal connected to the Haggards to talk about the stuff he cared about.

It may be worth noting that while some have been upset that Craig Gross said things about Driscoll that could be considered gossip we should not too soon forget "A Blog Post for the Brits".  Wenatchee The Hatchet has at least some of that stuff around ...
 http://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2014/08/on-driscolls-interview-with-justin.html
http://pastormark.tv/2012/01/12/a-blog-for-the-brits
January 12, 2012

There is reportedly an article coming out in a British Christian publication that features an interview with me. As is often the case, to stoke the fires of controversy, thereby increasing readership, which generates advertising revenue, a few quotes of mine have been taken completely out of context and sent into the Twittersphere. So, I thought I would put a bit of water on the fire by providing context.

...

 I have a degree in communications from one of the top programs in the United States. So does my wife, Grace. We are used to reporters with agendas and selective editing of long interviews. Running into reporters with agendas and being selectively edited so that you are presented as someone that is perhaps not entirely accurate is the risk one takes when trying to get their message out through the media.

With the release of our book, Real Marriage, we have now done literally dozens of interviews with Christians and non-Christians. But the one that culminated in the forthcoming article was, in my opinion, the most disrespectful, adversarial, and subjective. As a result, we’ve since changed how we receive, process, and moderate media interviews.  

The interview in question had nearly nothing to do with the book or its subject matter, which in my understanding was supposed to be the point of the interview. My wife, Grace, was almost entirely ignored in the interview, and I felt she was overall treated disrespectfully. The only questions asked were about any controversial thing I’ve ever said in the past 15 years with a host of questions that were adversarial and antagonistic. It felt like a personally offended critic had finally gotten his chance to exercise some authority over me.

Things got particularly strange near the end of the interview. I was asked a question about, if a woman was the pastor of a church which that pastor’s husband attended, would that be emasculating to him. The question was asked in such a pointed way that it was odd.

At the end of the interview, I started asking questions of the interviewer. He admitted that his last questions were really about himself and his wife. Apparently his wife is the pastor of their church, he’s strongly committed to women as pastors, disagrees strongly with our complementarian position, and takes it to some degree personally.
If it seemed crass of Craig Gross to opine on Mark Driscoll in the year after his resignation, let it not be forgotten that at the pinnacle of his celebrity a few years ago, Mark Driscoll felt at liberty to issue what could be construed as a pre-emptive attack on the character and doctrine of a journalist who interviewed him during the promotional campaign for Real Marriage. If there is outrage amongst Driscoll's supporters at what Craig Gross has decided to say after a resignation, where was the outrage for what could be seen as a pre-emptive character attack on the part of Mark Driscoll back in 2012?

Craig Gross on Twitter "Apparently Mark Driscoll still has an army of fans that aren't mad that their email address was sold but get mad at any mention of Mark"

https://twitter.com/craiggross/status/580181805870927872
Craig Gross‏@craiggross

Apparently Mark Driscoll still has an army of fans that aren't mad that their email address was sold but get mad at any mention of Mark

6:38 PM - 23 Mar 2015

https://twitter.com/craiggross/status/580220452942917632

All I would like to know is who owns this site? http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:jKJW_vIjnKIJ:www.churchleaderslist.com/+&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us …

  

9:11 PM - 23 Mar 2015

 

Fair question.  What's this lead to?

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:jKJW_vIjnKIJ:www.churchleaderslist.com/+&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Well, there's a bit in there that might bore you but the good old CSV import/export protocol process sure seems familiar. 

Then there's this:

How did people join this list?

This list was compiled from some of the largest churches, conferences, and Christian leadership websites. Everyone on this list opted in to emails from third parties through one of our partners and affiliates. We’ve gathered all the names together into one list to provide you with one of the largest and most up-to-date lists of Christians and Church Leaders.

But the question still isn't answered how those churches got that information, just yet.  It seems like it might matter if the list came from Mars Hill or from Resurgence Publishing Inc because ...

Again, just a guess here, Resurgence Publishing Incorporated theoretically could sell a list. 

http://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2014/09/repeating-earlier-question-as.html
http://marshill.com/files/2013/07/16/MHC_2013_Public_Disclosure_Package.pdf
Consolidated financial statements
for the year ended June 30,2012

from Nature of Activities -
... The Church's programs include Sunday services, community oriented ministries, leadership development, and training. One program, the Resurgence, fulfills many of the Church's leadership and training functions by publishing content online and in print, hosting conferences and events, and providing internships and classes, including Re:Train (The Resurgence Training Center), which offers graduate-level instruction for leaders from around the world.

Principles of Consolidation -

The consolidated financial statements include the accounts of Mars Hill Church and its wholly owned corporation, Resurgence Publishing, Inc, and wholly owned LLC, Mars Hill Properties - 50th LLC, which was dissolved during the year (collectively, the Church). All material inter-organization transactions have been eliminated. [emphasis added]

If all material inter-organization transactions were eliminated what did that mean?  If all material inter-organization transactions were eliminated then it seems like either the church provided the list of names or Resurgence did but if Resurgence Publishing Inc. provided the names it's distinct from the church ... right?

Again, though, we need a lot of confirmation of a lot of stuff at the moment that one can only hope will be forthcoming.

so far it's looking messy ...
https://twitter.com/craiggross/status/580185345813180417

If Justin Dean's got time to interact with Craig Gross could he explain which conversation he believes The Stranger fabricated in a thing they posted?

But let's clear something up here, Craig Gross or an associate buying a list of contacts for a marketing/fundraising campaign is above board.  That's normal.  Non-profits and for-profit companies do this every year.  What's unusual is the provenance of the list seems to be in question.  Gross shouldn't be getting any trouble from people who think he has somehow preyed upon the fallen Mark Driscoll because it's not clear as yet Driscoll had anything to do with the sale of the list.  What WOULD be interesting is to establish who sold the list and who made the list available.  That's the thing that seems murky.

Compared to the pre-emptive attack Mark Driscoll did in 2012 on Justin Brierley with "A Blog Post for the Brits" Craig Gross's awkward spam this week seems nearly dignified and definitely restrained.

While Wenatchee The Hatchet had guessed the list could have been from Resurgence assets it's not even clear that that's the case.  Was the list culled from Resurgence Publishing Inc resources or from Mars Hill Church resources?

question answered, Throckmorton reports a mass email from anti-porn ministry that bought Resurgence mailing list

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2015/03/23/mass-email-anti-porn-ministry-buys-mars-hill-church-resurgence-mailing-list/

Well, looks like the question has some of an answer.  Throckmorton has published some spam that has been sent out lately.  Of particular note is this:

On Monday, Mar 23, 2015 at 6:33 PM, Craig Gross <craig@xxxchurch.com>, wrote:

Hey Guys and Gals, 

I sent you an email earlier. Just to be clear.
I apologize if my email caught you off guard. I bought an email list from http://www.churchleaderslist.com/.?utm_campaign=website&utm_source=sendgrid.com&utm_medium=email Mark’s right hand guy at Mars Hill told us that this list was the Resurgence list. 

Craig


Read more: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2015/03/23/mass-email-anti-porn-ministry-buys-mars-hill-church-resurgence-mailing-list/#ixzz3VGhn7QFk
Because as Wenatchee The Hatchet was musing earlier today, the donor/customer/client listings of Resurgence Publishing, Inc. might be one of the few assets the corporation would have to sell that somebody could use.  And if Craig Gross was referring to Sutton Turner, well, Sutton Turner's the guy who directs/manages/owns/handles Resurgence Publishing Inc.  With the company set to expire in late May selling off whatever actually viable assets might sell doesn't seem like a bad move.

Selling, buying or renting lists of names for donor cultivation or customer appeals is pretty common even in non-profit fundraising.  It would be even more common in for-profit settings. 

As Throckmorton has recently noted, the email list at the time Resurgence Publishing, Inc. went up for sale was approximately 60,000.  That's not too shabby a sample size, in theory, but it would be understandable if all the people who just got spammed by Craig Gross and company were taken aback at getting a cold solicitation spam. 

Well, folks, now you may have an opportunity to learn that list buying happens in ministries, too.  List renting also happens--what that allows for is carpet-bombing a region with a solicitation to prospective donors.  If people respond they get added to the donor data pool and if they don't they won't end up on the donor mailing lists for subsequent in-house solicitations.  Without getting too detailed this is a field of work that Wenatchee The Hatchet knows a few things about.  You won't be able to unsubscribe to the kind of spam Gross just sent recently because if it's a donor cultivation/prospect e-blast you might not even already be in the systems they have.  But we'd need to know vastly more about the donor management systems of the organization to field that ... and it's the start of the work week. 

Hey, at least Gross admitted he bought the list.  And here Wenatchee The Hatchet was thinking maybe it was nice Sutton Turner didn't want any gifts or donations and isn't going to start a 501(c)3.  Why bother if it turns out he's the one who sold the list of Resurgence donors/customers?  Would Turner and/or Gross like to confirm if this was the case or clarify?