Monday, June 27, 2016

Mark Driscoll and the influence of porn: a few things from the 2007-2008 period including the Scotland sermon and content from 2008's Peasant Princess



http://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2014/10/mark-driscoll-in-2007-biblical-man-most.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0OWNJufdF4

The Biblical Man
2007
43:53i
sh
...
And most guys are just simply frustrated, that I have talked to, because they're not getting enough sex. I'll give you one story. Won't name his name, but I remember meeting with a--this is a lot of my marriage counseling. I don't think I'm a great marriage counselor but I do think I have one key insight that I'll share with you. Oftentimes I meet with couples and here's what I hear--the wife says, "I don't feel like we're connected. I don't feel like we're close. I feel like he's a little irritable." And then I ask, "How often are you having sex?"  And she's, "What does that have to do with anything?" [slight chuckle] That effects everything.  You know. Frequency is important. ...

"You guys have sex every day and then come see me again in a month and if there's still communication problems, he seems depressed, he's lethargic, THEN we'll talk because there's OBVIOUSLY a problem. But we're gonna start with what SEEMS to be the most obvious solution." 

I'm telling ya, ninety-nine percent of the time they come back a month later she's like, "He's just totally a different guy. [emphasis added] ...

A former Mars Hill member told me about this teaching session from 2007 a few years ago.  At the time he heard it he thought it was exciting and encouraging.  Years later, after leaving Mars Hill, he felt very differently.  Driscoll was, in spite of the jocularity, seriously proposing that ninety-nine percent of the time after he told couples to go have sex every day that the communication problems were all solved. We've discussed in the past how during this same period of time Bill Clem was telling single guys that the big illusion they'd need to cast off was the idea that once they got married they could or would have sex any time they wanted, and used his own experience with his first wife Jeannie dying of cancer as a counterexample.

If someone wanted to make a case that Mark Driscoll had made a god of sex it being proposed as a general Plan A cure-all for a good chunk of couples with communication issues could be evidence.

And then there's the Scotland sermon.

Mark Driscoll | Sex: A Study of the Good Bits of Song of Solomon
Edinburgh, Scotland on November 18,2007
about 23:05
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8sNVDyW-ws&feature=youtu.be


Like an apple tree among the trees of the forest,‖ she says, ―is my lover among the young men. I delight to sit in his shade and his fruit is sweet to my taste.‖ What is she talking about? Oral sex on her husband. That as he stands, she likes to be beneath him and his taste is sweet. It is a euphemism for oral sex, in your Bible. The Jews wouldn‘t even let men read this until they were married or thirty. Now you know why. You‘ve got Jewish boys under the blankets at night with a candle. [Laughter from audience.] Men, I am glad to report to you that oral sex is biblical. Amen? [Minimal response from audience.] No, you can do better than that. [Laughter from audience] The wife performing oral sex on the husband is biblical. God‘s men said, Amen. Ladies, your husbands appreciate oral sex. They do. So, serve them, love them well. It‘s biblical. Right here. We have a verse. The fruit of her husband is sweet to her taste and she delights to be beneath

24:17
I'll tell you a story if you don't tell anyone else of a man who started attending our church because of oral sex. Right? So many women go to church. In your country it's sixty or seventy percent. "My husband won't come to church. He doesn't have any interest in the things of God. He doesn't understand why church would apply to him." We had a woman like that in our church. She became a Christian. Her husband was not a Christian. He hated the church, wanted nothing to do with the church. She kept browbeating him about Jesus. "You need to get saved. You're gonna burn in hell."
He had no interest in that. 

And so, finally, I was teaching a class on sex and she said, "Oh, so oral sex on a husband is what a wife is supposed to do?" I said, "Yes." She said, "My husband's always wanted that but I've refused him." I went to 1 Peter 3. I said, "The Bible says that if your husband is not a Christian that you are to win him over with deeds of kindness." I said, "So go home and tell your husband that you were in a Bible study today and that God has convicted you of sin.  And repent and go perform oral sex on your husband and tell him that Jesus, Jesus Christ commands you to do so." [emphasis added] The next week the man showed up at church. He came up to me, he said, "You know, this is a really good church." That handing out tracts on the street thing, there's a better way to see revival, I assure you of that
.
28:29
--you say, "Won't that make me dirty?" No, it'll make you a good wife, and ladies, let me assure you of this, if you think you're being dirty he's pretty happy. [emphasis added]


This was one of the more notorious sermons and it got pulled eventually.  That Mark Driscoll ever thought to preach the sermon for public record at all speaks to his unusual approach.  He could be counted on to deliver talks about sex. 

Over the years Driscoll would tell guys to not have this illusion of the homeschool stripper wife who could conjugate Greek verbs and knew what to do with a steel pole.  But, what's the implication in the following sermon?

http://download.marshill.se/files/2008/09/28/20080928_sweet-to-my-taste_sd_audio.mp3
SWEET TO MY TASTE
2 of The Peasant Princess
Pastor Mark Driscoll | Song of Songs 1:8 - 2:7 | September 28, 2008


And this is part of our theology. “Husbands, love your wife as Christ loves the church.” What does that mean? You  make sure that she is safe. That’s what it means. He needs to be a protector, and he needs to be told by his wife  what he’s doing and what to do. Now a lot of women don’t feel comfortable talking like this woman. She says, “Put  your arm under my head. Put your other hand in a place that Pastor Mark can’t talk about, but I really like. Take your time. We’re going to need to stop for snacks. My blood sugar level will drop. This could be a  while.” That’s what they’re saying. “Refresh me with raisins and,”— right? That’s what they’re talking about. [emphasis added]  Now  some of you ladies are like, “Can we talk about these things when we’re intimate? Can I speak?” Yes. “Well, I don’t  want to boss him around.” He would appreciate it if you did.

All right, if you told him, “Do this. Do this. Do this. Do this.” You’re like, “Am I bossy?” He’s like, “Yes, praise  God. Now I know what I’m doing.” Now, the truth is most men, and particularly newly married men, we don’t know what we’re doing, but we pretend like we do because otherwise we’re embarrassed, and you could talk and tell him, “Do  this. Do this. Do this. Never do that again.” Just let him know. Every husband, deep down, wants to take good care  of and satisfy his wife, and if she tells him in the intimate moments what to do and what not to do, it helps him,  and she tells him what she enjoys and what she is willing to do. Okay? Now the big, big debate — here we go — is  this little line here. “With great delight I sat in his shadow and his fruit was sweet to my taste.” What is she  talking about? The commentators freak out at this point.

Joseph Dillow has the best commentary on the Song of Songs that I have ever read. He says, quote, “We have a faint and delicate reference to an oral/genital caress.” She is telling him, “When you enjoy this, I do as well.” Somebody said, “Are they allowed to  talk about that?” Yes, it’s in the Bible. All Scripture is God-breathed. What this means is, married couples who are Christians should talk about everything sexually. Nothing’s — you’re not allowed to sin, but do you want to try this? You want to try it? Talk about it; discuss it. Put it out on the table.
It could be argued pretty easily that the implication in Driscoll's interpretation and application of the text is that the woman is basically saying they've been going at it for so long her blood sugar is low and a short break to recharge for more sex with some snacks is needed.  Where did Mark Driscoll imagine these young guys he was scolding at Mars Hill were getting their unrealistic ideas about what to expect from sex within marriage?

http://download.marshill.se/files/2008/11/09/20081109_dance-of-mahanaim_sd_audio.mp3
DANCE OF MAHANAIM
Part 7 of The Peasant Princess
Pastor Mark Driscoll | Song of Songs 6:11-7:10 | November 09, 2008

What she says was, “I was about the course of my normal daily affairs, and this desire awakened in me, this desire erupted in me. I had this crazy idea what I wanted to do with my husband.” It’s good to have passion. It’s good to be a woman who’s in touch with her desires, and if you’re married, it’s good to act upon them. Now the problem is, she had already promised her girlfriends that she would spend the day with them. Sometimes, when you get married, guys, you got to tell your buddies, “Sorry, I know we had tickets to the game. I can’t go tonight. My wife’s my priority. Something’s come up.” Ladies, sometimes just looking at your gal friends, on this occasion they’re single, and she tells them, “Look, I know we were going to spend the day together, but I got this crazy idea, I got to go home, and I got to be with my husband.”
 
She says that in Verse 13, and her friends respond, “Return, oh, return, oh Shulamite,” — that’s where the gal comes from — “Return, return that we may look upon you.” “Hey, we want to be with you today.” “No, you don’t. Not where this is going.” Chapter 7, why — he then speaks, the husband speaks to his wife. You’ll see that she is visually generous. He is verbally generous. She lets him see everything, and he talks to her with constant encouragement to overcome her insecurities. “Why should you look upon the Shulamite as upon a dance before two armies,” — the footnote in the English Standard Version is the Dance of Mahanaim, the preponderance of translations will call this the Dance of Mahanaim. The Dance of Mahanaim, so you know, is an ancient striptease. She is going to dance for her husband, okay?
 
Now before we get into the details, this is a Bible, okay? And what I’m reading is in the Bible, and II Timothy 3:16 says that “All Scripture is Godbreathed.” We believe that. We believe that the Bible, unlike anything else, is divinely inspired by God the Holy Spirit, through human authors, that 3,000 years ago God decided that this would be written down. That God knew we needed to learn this, and, as we read it, some of you will say, “I don’t like it.” Don’t judge the Scriptures by your prejudices. Allow the Scriptures to judge your prejudices. “All Scripture is God-breathed and profitable, including,” — and I’ve had some people say, “Well, you should preach the books of the Bible, but not that one.” Really? If it’s one we’re uncomfortable with, it may be exceedingly important.

Here is a sacred moment where a wife is visually generous. A husband is verbally generous. She is going to dance for her husband. It is in your Bible. [emphasis added] He begins with her feet, and proceeds upward. “How beautiful are your feet in sandals, oh noble daughter.” First thing he says is, “I love your feet,” and he notices your shoes. I don’t know why, but this is huge, huge. Okay. I have no reasoning. I’m just the mailman. Shoes count. You have amazing cute, little feet, and I love those shoes. He then proceeds north. “You’re rounded thigh are like jewels, the work of a master’s hand.” He says, “I love the curve of your legs.” You will notice he is verbally generous, as she is visually generous, and, I will reiterate, they are married.

Okay? Verse 2: the most debated in all of Song of Songs. “Your navel is a rounded bowl that never lacks mixed wine.” Now if this is what he is speaking of, then she has a large, round, red moist belly button, which would indicate to me some sort of massive traumatic injury, like farm machinery broke, and, at this point, the commentators are like, “We can’t say that. We can’t say that. That’s a woman’s place, and we have no — we can’t say that.” And my argument would be this. If the Bible says something, then we should let the Bible say what it said, because that’s God speaking. I don’t think it is the navel. What you will note that I do throughout the course of this series, is when we hit a very controversial, very sexual portion, I quote other people. Okay. It’s called blame-shifting. So then, if you are offended, you can send them an e-mail. Call them nasty and things, and I was just reading what they said. So I will do that for you now.
...

aka the "wifely striptease".  The actual exegetical basis from which to propose a striptease is what is in the text never got made.  Driscoll just riffed at length on the wifely striptease. A guy who by his own account grew up near a couple of strip clubs could have been reading in experiences or interests that had nothing to  do with the text itself there.  This isn't to say that a person couldnt' make a case for a "wifely striptease" being in Song of Songs on exegetical grounds, it's just that the woman dancing isn't the same thing as a strip show but Driscoll had made up his mind.

Of course by 2008 there weren't just sermons.  There were Q&A sessions and some of the questions that were sent (or prepared) for Mark Driscoll to answer included ...

http://marshill.com/2008/11/02/question-3-why-does-god-give-young-men-such-strong-sexual-desires


Of course if a dude happened to have same-sex attraction that would throw a gigantic monkey wrench into Driscoll's diagram of how the young guy's sex drive is given by God to make the guy seek to have sex in a responsible way. 

It's not that Driscoll can't make a case that a whole generation of young men have been negatively influenced by a pornographic culture--it's just that given the way mark Driscoll has chosen to repeatedly discuss sex since practically the dawn of his public ministry it's worth asking whether he embodies this problematic element himself. 

POSTSCRIPT

While we could have taken a diversion into the "I see things" stuff where Driscoll claimed to witness molestations in real time by dint of super powers that's for another set of posts.  But it's worth noting in passing since some alert readers may wonder why it didn't get mentioned as those claims were often described in some circles as "porno-visions".  Duly noted and all that, but this series has been attempting to discuss the things people weren't blogging about already that have been public record, if possible.

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