Friday, November 21, 2014

2-5-2008 spiritual warfare Part 2 part 7: idolatry as ordinary demonic and Driscoll name-drops Peter Jones' one-ism and two-ism

http://castroller.com/podcasts/MarsHillChurch3/3699801
February 5, 2008
Pastor Mark Driscoll

Part 2: The Devil

1:08:21

Last, too, ordinary demonic, idolatry. 1 John 5:18-21 talks about idolatry. I hit it on Sunday that idolatry is worshipping creatION instead of creaTOR. Romans 1:25 says they exchanged the truth of God for a lie or THE lie and the worshipped and served created things rather than the creator God. Peter Jones, a leading scholar in the world on paganism, lectured here not long ago, did a great job in Romans 1. He said there really are only two world views, there's THE truth and THE lie. And THE truth is that God is creator and he rules over creation and we exist to worship creator and steward creation. The lie is that God and creation are the same. It's two-ism vs one-ism. Two-ism is creator/creation. One-ism is that creator and creation are essentially the same. It comes out in philosophical language like monism, pantheism, panentheism, (pantheism [is] that all creation is God, panentheism that creation is the body which contains God). This is most Eastern religions, most pagan religions, radical environmentalism, it's one-ism. We believe in two-ism. We believe that God made things not that God and those things are esentially the same.

What happens is if you believe the lie instead of the truth, if you believe one-ism instead of two-ism, you worship created things rather than creator God. And in Romans 1 he says this leads to lesbianism and homosexuality and sexual perversion and sin of all kinds. You know what it is? God made the body very good. He made everything good. He made the body very good. Gender, sexuality, pleasure, I read for you guys Sunday Steven Arterburn, a Christian counselor who says that the only thing as pleasurable as sex, chemically, is heroin, that's why it's so addictive. God intends sex to be between one man and one woman and the pleasure and passion that bond them together as a loving married couple (which is why when sex is outside of marriage it leads to devastation, addiction and destruction) people who commit sexual sin, they are worshipping the body, they're worshipping nudity, they're worshipping parts of the body, they're worshipping the pleasures of their body, they're worshipping the appearance, taste, touch, sight, smell of someone else's body. Sexual sin is idolatry.  It's worshipping creation rather than creator. It's a much bigger issue than just a lifestyle issue. It's a worship issue.

1:10:56ish
I shared with you on Sunday, as well, the insight of Martin Luther, who said that the first two commandments is that there's only one God and the second is that you're only to worship God and Luther says if you don't break the first two commandments you won't break the rest. You won't murder anybody. You won't commit adultery. You won't covet, you won't lie, you won't steal, you won't because if you worship God ONLY you won't worship sex, power, fame, money and glory and you won't commit idolatry. Peter Kreeft, the philosopher, says the opposite of Christianity is not atheism but idolatry. That we're all worshippers. We all GIVE ourselves to someone or something. Romans 11:36 he talks about, you know, "to God be the glory now and forever. Do not be conformed any longer to the pattern of this world but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. And there he's talking about glory, holding something in glory. He's talking about worship, giving yourself to it. Sacrifice time, energy, money, health, for the good of this person, this thing, this feeling, this experience, that in that way sports is religion and sex is religion and work is religion and intellect is religion and power is religion and fame is religion and it's ALL idolatry. It's ALL the worship of ME and US and the feelings and the passions and the joys and the pleasures and the pride that we enjoy.
That ultimately Satan just wants to take our Imago Dei that is made to worship and have it worship created things rather than creator God. That's all he wants to do and he's so good at it and people are idolatrous and they're worshipping Satan when they commit idolatry.


POSTSCRIPT: 11-23-2014
The lecture(s) potentially in question may be the following:
https://marshill.com/2008/01/07/free-pagan-training-jan-8

January 8, 2008 and for a second reference to the same lecture, Gary Shavey was mentioning tha tit was coming up in December 2007.

http://theresurgence.com/2007/12/20/our-land-of-blur-and-the-5-points-of-paganism
...
Resurgence is hosting two free events on January 8, 2008 to help the church and believers understand and address this root issue. We invite all Pacific Northwest pastors, church planters and ministry leaders to join Dr. Peter Jones, professor and author, for a free morning workshop that includes lunch. ...

8 comments:

C. Stirling Bartholomew said...

RE: comments

it seems that there is some sort of glitch where comments are not acivated for the most recent post. In other words, the top post on the blog dosent let you comment. When a new post arrives comments become activeated for the privious post.

C. Stirling Bartholomew said...

RE: part 3 Christos Victor

http://castroller.com/podcasts/MarsHillChurch3/3711825

I listened to most of this over the last two days. I can only handle about 20 mins or less per session. It is really annoying material. It seems that the quality of the content has gone from not great by tolerable in part one to marginal or even bad in part two and becomes downright ridiculous nonsense in part three.

I cannot help but compare MD's teaching on exorcism to the only two exorcists I have known. There method was very simple prayer and laying on of hands in presence of several elders. There was none of this business of parsing the demonic hierarchy. MD's teaching in part three is off the charts. Don't know who he has been listening to but I wouldn't send my neighbors dog to MD for spiritual counseling

Wenatchee the Hatchet said...

sorry about the glitch of comments being shut off for commentary posts but in light of how some of Driscoll's fans have4 taken to Wenatchee's analysis and suggestions it seemed more prudent to leave comments available to people willing to comment directly on the material. That way if anyone has comments on what Driscoll actually said (vs contesting WtH's interpretation in a subsequent post) that's still an option.

Having picked up William Gurnall's giant book it's virtually impossible to see how there's any connection between stuff DRiscoll has said and Gurnall's writing. While Part 2 was strange Part 3 gets into the official demon trial stuff and gets even weirder. It's where Driscoll gets most explicit that Christians can actually be demonized through external oppression and internal influence. If that's true then, well, it becomes all the more salient whether Driscoll could meet his own criteria for how Christians can be demonized, doesn't it?

C. Stirling Bartholomew said...

I have yet to discover where MD came up with the Demon Trial scenario. MD is NOT an original thinker. He adopts everything he teaches from a source. This Demon Trial thing is a developed methodology which didn't just pop up at MHC from nowhere. There has got to be some book or film or both somewhere that these ideas were borrowed from. I suspect that popular culture is the best place to look but I am totally out touch with popular culture.

The methodology MD describes in part three[1] of the spiritual warfare lectures appears to cross the line between deliverance ministry and actual participation in magic. The elaborate process implies that the practitioner gets results because a certain set of procedures are employed. MD claims to be able, through addressing questions to the demonized person, to ferret out the layers of the demonic hierarchy so he can address his efforts toward the “top guy.” MD is effectively using the demonized person as a chanel to isolate MD from direct verbal interaction the powers of darkness. Does this not sound like witchcraft?


The whole process including the tone of MD’s description of his methodology reeks of “spiritual” hubris. He seems to think he has the subject well under control. Such an attitude is pathetic.


[1] part three http://castroller.com/podcasts/MarsHillChurch3/3711825

Wenatchee the Hatchet said...

maybe Driscoll got some stuff from Neil T. Anderson's Bondage Breaker?

Driscoll seemed to combine procedures resembling either Anderson or maybe (even further out) Rebecca Brown MD. That the trial process can't even work on a non-Christian seems to suggest that all these demon trials would essentially be just for self-professed Christians within Driscoll's counseling activity.

C. Stirling Bartholomew said...

Thanks I just put holds on both authors books. Also brougth home the "classic" The Exoricst William Peter Blatty 1971 from the library.

Lots of web info on Rebecca Brown MD.

I going to find out if one exorcist firends is still alive. I don't he is but I will run it down. His colleague passed away two or three years ago.

C. Stirling Bartholomew said...

Bob Larson looks like a potential source of several of the dubious ideas used in the third session.

search for "Bob Larson" at this address
http://www.letusreason.org/Pent63.htm

Wenatchee the Hatchet said...

belated postscript, Karl Payne is a name that has come up in case I haven't mentioned it before.