Wednesday, September 10, 2014

Driscoll in 2008 and 2013 on lies and lying with a bit of spiritual warfare

https://marshill.com/2013/11/23/we-even-lie-about-our-lying
By: Pastor Mark Driscoll
Posted: Nov 23, 2013
...

If you’ve read this far, I’m certain the Holy Spirit has convicted you of lying somewhere, sometime in your life. I’m guilty. We’re all guilty. But if we know it’s wrong, then why do we do it? Here are six reasons.
  1. We lie to avoid negative consequences for ourselves.
  2. We lie to create or protect an illusion of who we are.
  3. We lie to get what we want.
  4. We lie to remain in control of a situation.
  5. We lie to punish someone else.
  6. We lie about someone to be accepted by someone who despises them.
In short, we lie because we want to be God. We want to establish our own standard of truth. We want to control our own life and its outcomes. We want to look good.

By now it is widely recognized Mars Hill has been in some kind of crisis mode for the better part of a year.  Core to that crisis is the level of trust in the accountability and discretion and transparency of the leadership culture at Mars Hill and, particularly, at the upper echelons.  The plagiarism controversy and the Result Source controversy cast some generally legitimate doubt on the originality of Driscoll's content and the means through which his star rose in 2012.  The crisis is one that goes to the heart of how trustworthy the leadership culture of Mars Hill is from bottom to top, though most of the scandals relate to the uppermost leader himself.  Real Marriage was a touchstone in the public ministry of Mark Driscoll both for the plagiarism controversy and the Result Source Inc. controversy.  What is worth revisiting is a look at what he was saying and who he was saying it about when, arguably, his star was at its zenith.

Driscoll opted to provide a pre-emptive attack on the doctrine and character of Justin Brierley mere weeks before he was extolling readers at Pastor Mark TV with bromides about winning people and not arguments on the basis of his meeting with T. D. Jakes. In spite of a history of having denounced Jakes back in 2007 for Word faith teaching as a promoter of a doctrinal error, by late 2011 Driscoll
was hinting that Jakes might be all right and that:
http://pastormark.tv/2011/09/29/reflections-on-james-macdonald-td-jakes-and-the-trinity
...
Admittedly, sometimes when speaking, a teacher presents a belief in a way that is inaccurate and unclear. So called “discernment” bloggers who are usually not connected to any noteworthy or respected evangelical Christian theologians, schools, denominations, ministries, churches, or pastors make their living taking what people said wrongly, transcribing it, and then falsely—or at least wrongly—accusing them of heresy when it is untrue.

But ... that link is dead, isn't it.  So ...
http://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2011/10/mark-driscoll-on-t-d-jakes-suspend.html
you'll have to visit THAT link to see a document of the sort of stuff Driscoll was saying in late 2011.  The point is that Driscoll's by-now publicly documentable statements about Jakes have been all over the map.  And, more to the point, the handshake with Jakes was the same month Driscoll saw fit to do a pre-emptive jab at Justin Brierley.  Driscoll seemed to want to have it both ways and January 2012 was when Real Marriage was officially published and hit #1 on the NYT when it opened thanks, it turns out, to help from Result Source Inc.  It also turned out that the book used ideas from other authors without citation.  Between rigging sales and presenting material without citation as though it were original thought Real Marriage could be construed as a double deception. Then there's a synoptic ambiguity as to when that nightmare that had Driscoll puking actually happened, whether before or after Ashley Driscoll's birth.  There is also a more esoteric question as to the narrative in the 2012 book about how thoroughly sexless the Driscoll marriage could often be and why that bitterness on Mark's part wouldn't have been "satanic" if Mark had assessed himself on the basis of his own teaching about spiritual warfare. It was after Wenatchee The Hatchet published that post that Mars Hill apparently scrubbed the 2008 Spiritual Warfare material from its media library.


https://marshill.com/2013/11/23/we-even-lie-about-our-lying
If someone deceives us, he or she is responsible for the deception. But we’re not always and only victims in every scenario. We’re also morally culpable and responsible for believing lies if we have neglected to seek the truth.

Is this an idea he has mentioned before?  Yep

http://marshill.com/media/spiritual-warfare/the-devil
http://cdn.marshill.com/files/collection/documents/spiritual-warfare_9080_document.pdf
http://castroller.com/podcasts/MarsHillChurch3/3699801
February 5, 2008Part 2 - The Devil
Mark Driscoll
1:00:09
John chapter 8, Satan also likes to work through the ordinary demonic of lies. Jesus says there that Satan is a liar. He is the father of lies. He has been lying since the beginning. Lying is his native tongue.


Here's the situation with lies, lies work. [emphasis added] The vast majority of your demonic counseling will simply be figuring out the lies that people believe. Jesus says "You will know the truth and the truth shall set you free." That's, "People are in bondage to lies and the truth sets them free."

This can be theological but sometimes it's just really practical.
[short pause]


I'll give you one situation, I use this analogy all the time.  Let's say there's a woman and she believes that her husband doesn't love her and she believes that he's cheating on her committing adultery.  Let's say it's a total lie, it's not true. If she believes that will that effect anything? It destroys everything. Why? Because it doesn't need to be true to devastate it just needs to be believed and then acted upon as if it were true.

One of the things I like to do with people who believe lies--and it's amazing [the] lies people believe. We'll get into accusations and vain regrets and all of that--but one of the things I like to do with people is I just like to have them keep a journal. Tell me all the lies you believe about others, God, theology, the truth, Jesus, yourself. What are the lies?  I mean, what are the lies. 

I've had people come to me with pages and pages and pages and pages of lies. I've had woman tell me things like, "I deserved to be raped." That's a lie. "Well, I got raped because I had too much to drink and I was under-dressed and I was kind of asking for it." That's a lie. I had one young woman tell me (I've done more than my share of abuse counseling and rape victims and molestations and it's devastating but so many of them believe lies) [emphasis added] I had one gal who was molested by her father say, "You know, it really is my fault. When I was a little girl I would sit on his lap and I would rub his face and I would kiss his cheek and he did molest me but it was my fault because I, I  caused him to desire me."

No, that's a lie.  A little girl should sit on her daddy's lap and rub his face and kiss him on the check and that should elicit no sexual response in the daddy. In fact just the opposite of sexual response, pure fatherly love. Embrace, snuggle, hug, kiss encourage, nothing sexual. That's in him, not in you.  That's his flesh. That's not your affection. That's a lie. That's a lie.

People believe all kinds of lies, it's unbelievable. One of the first things you've gotta do is figure out what all the lies are. That's why I have them journal out, "What are all the lies that you believe." Just journal what you think might be a lie. And if they're married I bring in their spouse. I'll ask, "What are the lies that your spouse believes?" and usually the spouse has a better read on it.
...
01:05:40
I had one woman, wonderful gal, sweet gal, she was convinced of the lie that her husband was committing adultery on her. So every time he'd go to work she would literally have a panic attack and would go into the closet and shut the door and be there for hours having a literal, full-blown nervous breakdown panic attack. Her husband's a great guy. Loves Jesus, loves her. It [the idea that the husband was cheating on his wife] was a total lie but something in her believed that lie and I think, for her, that struck at the core of her sense of security and identity and Satan got her to believe that lie and it absolutely undid her.  She went to counseling; she was diagnosed bipolar, paranoid schizophrenic, multiple personality disorder (I believe that such things are true but sometimes they're a junk drawer for other diagnoses for people that are experiencing real spiritual problems); they put her on all kinds of medication, she still had panic attacks, still freaking out, still in the closet; and I just told her, I said, "Sweetheart, it's a lie." It's a lie.


Her husband's sitting right there, I said, "Okay, God's honest truth, have you ever committed adultery on your wife?"
"No."
"When you leave the house are you going to commit adultery?"
"No, I'm going to work."
"Have you ever touched another woman, are you looking at porn, are you doing anything."
He's like, "I'm not doing anything. I go to work and I come home. That's what I'm doing. I love her.  You know, I'm delighted to be with her. She's the best."


I looked at her, I said, "Okay, here's what faith looks like for you--believe the truth. Don't believe the lie. If you believe the lie, you're going to ruin everything. If you believe the truth, you'll be okay. And you know what?  By God's grace she repented of her feeding the lie. She needed to see that believing a lie was a sin. It was a sin to be repented of. Here's the truth, here's the lie, I chose the lie. That's a sin, I need to repent.  I need to believe the truth. I need to have faith to live in light of the truth, like Jesus said, then I'll be free in the truth.

[She] went off her medication, no more panic attacks, no diagnoses, she's fine. This has been some years, they've got a loving marriage, they're doing great, they love Jesus. They're wonderful people.  But she fed the lie.  Don't feed the lies. And they're everywhere and part of your art in counseling is asking enough questions to figure out what the lies are that people believe.

In other words, it would appear you can be opened up to demonic oppression of some kind for believing lies and the subject of whether or not the person who lied to you was being satanic in some way was sort of, well, not quite as important. 
So, with Driscoll's teaching about deceit in mind ...

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Mars-Hill-pastor-terminated--273144811.html?tab=video&c=y
at the 58 second mark whose voice is that?  It sounds like a voice that's been piped in through speakers and video feeds at Mars Hill for years, yes? 

"Sorry"  "Wrong address"  "I don't know." in response to a request to speak to Mark Driscoll.

Okay so ...

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