Tuesday, July 29, 2014

The text of the February 1 2001 "Headship" thread started by William Wallace II

Not everything Wenatchee The Hatchet has been able to compile has been in a handy visual format. Sometimes all that remains is raw text of material that was originally available on the old unmoderated Midrash.  In "Pussified Nation" allusions cropped up to the positive alternative to the negatives discussed in that thread.  The positives, perhaps, were discussed a bit in the thread below.

Author  Topic:   Headship 
William Wallace II
Member   posted 02-01-2001 04:12 PM             
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Now, let's get back to the topic.
Listening to the recent posts brings a verse to mind "...warriors have stopped fighting; they remain in the strongholds. Their strength is exhausted; they have become like women..." - Jeremiah 51:30
This thread is devoted to solutions. Real solutions. Not the ethereal out of touch impractical psychological feel your way through life like a blind man driving on the freeway kind of New Age noise that has been so prominent as of late on this site.
Men, here is the bottom line. Ephesians 5 says that you are to love your wife like Christ loves the church.
This means more than you feeling really really happy and gushy and mushy inside every time you think of her like some bad Valentine card propaganda bought by a junior high boy to give to his first crush in hopes that she'll kiss him. It also means more than you being in charge of every woman and that they should all bow down to you because you are a guy and they are not and you are therefore smarter, superior, and some sort of king ding.
Many women are smarter than you, and godlier, and more gifted, and doing more for the gospel. Each woman should submit to her husband. That means that you do not govern over women in general, but just your wife. Therefore, you had better get a woman who you can lead and govern as her head.
If you are a weak and cowardly half-a-man you will try and find a shortcut to being the head of your home. You will be harsh with your wife to keep her in her place. You will stunt her growth in Christ to make sure she stays behind you. You will demand that she respect you even when you live a slacked jacked life that embarrases her to be called your wife. You will tell her to shut up, stay in her place, and stay behind you.
If you were a manly man, you would encourage her strength, growth, maturity and the like. And you would begin by being so devoted to God that you outran her and she could easily follow because you ran fast and hard and encouraged her to try and keep up.
This is not competition. This is leadership. You lovingly sprint out ahead and coach her to run with you hand in hand as you serve Christ together with your home being your base of ministry out of which influence extended to all nations of the earth beginning with your wife and children.
All of this to say that you are the head. By that, God means that you are responsible.
Simply, if your wife is an incessant gossip, nag, flirt or the like it is your responsibility. She is responsible for her sin, and so are you. If she manipulates you, you are not a victim. If she rules over you, you are not a victim. If she disrespects you, you are not a victim. If she drives you nuts, you are not a victim. If she is bad in bed, you are not a victim.
Why?
Because you let her.
So, if this sounds familiar get on your knees and apologize to her for being such a coward and letting her run free like some uncaged animal. Get your family together and repent of the sins of your family. Then, lead them out of their mess and take responsibility as the head of your home.
How much of our sin does Jesus Christ own? That's right, all of it. Jesus died on the cross not because of anything He had done, but because of we had done. He was our head, so He took upon Himself our sin. So, to love a woman as Jesus loves His church calls a man to die to himself, pick up his cross and suffer for the sins of his wife and lead her into repentant change.
You are a head. You are responsible. If your car rolls down a hill into a home the owner of that home does not sue the car. Why? Because you are the head of that car, you are responsible for it, and you must govern it to ensure it does not get out of control. So it is with your family. If it rolls downhill you are the owner and you should repent, make resitution, and ensure that things change.
This is the heavy part of headship. Each man wants a wife who is topless and sinless. What the get is a woman with three shirts and a stubborn sinful will. To be the head means to be strong enough to govern her, kind enough to melt her heart, and godly enough to lead her.
Yes, like Christ.

[This message has been edited by William Wallace II (edited 02-01-2001).]
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William Wallace II
Member   posted 02-01-2001 04:38 PM             
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"Be on your guard; stand firm in the faith; be men of courage; be strong. Do everything in love." - I Corinthians 16:14
Today it would not be called the Church of Corinth, but the Church of Springer.
A Christian guy was having sex with his mom. Christians were getting drunk at communion. Christians were suing each other. Christians were speaking in tongues like the freaks we see on tv. Christians were having homo sex and picking up prostitutes with God's money. Christians were getting divorced. Christians were not tithing to their church. Christian women were interrupting the pastor and acting like feminists by disrespecting their fathers and husbands. Christians were marrying unbelievers. Christians were listening to false teachers.
And, they thought they were just fine and really had their stuff together. Yes, they were the first American Evangelicals way before their time. Today, some publishing house would lift up their apolgists to misquote Scripture and defend the entire mess and God's will. With any luck they'd eventually get stadiums filled with men and lame pastel t-shirts out of the gig.
And they really needed to pull their mess of a church together. And so Paul wrote them a couple of letters, the first of which was particulalry scathing. And he answered their questions and told them to suck it up and by God's grace stop sinning and being such well read bickering proud imbeciles.
And, at the end of his letter he lays out both the problem and the solution which are always one and the same. Paul speaks directly to the men because they are supposed to govern the church and by God's grace fix the mess. How does God work? Through His people. And first, through His men.
All of this to say that if you are a man you also have headship over your church. Headship begins with Christ, comes down through the elders, and continues down through each man. This does not mean that every man should be listened to or that the women should pretend that the male knuckleheads are holier than the godly women.
It means that the men are responsible for the church. If your church sucks, it is your fault. If the Bible is not taught, it is your fault. If single guys are putting their hands down the pants of God's daughters, it is your fault. If guys are not giving their monies first to the Lord, it is your fault.
Have they sinned? Yes. And who is responsible? You.
Do not complain about your church. Do not whine that your needs are not met. Do not stop going to church because they are all bad. If you know Christ then first repent of your sin, then repent of the sin of your church, then get to work.
What should you do?
"Be on guard". By this, you have to keep your eyes open and see what the heck is going on in your church and the people's lives. This should not be taken as a license for legalistic voyeurism into people's lives. But, you should know what's going on. You are a soldier and you are supposed to be on duty at all times and not napping on your watch.
"Stand firm in your faith". By this, you must learn to not be a silent coward who backs down at the first sign of conflict or reistance. If you do not like conflict, then simply expect to lose for the rest of your life.
"Be men of courage". By this, you must be masculine, a manly man. This does not mean that because you drink beer, drive a big truck, can beat up your sister and have a fifteen inch long personality that you are a man. A man is a noble soldier who is on guard to protect, governing as a responsible head, and has courage like his King, Jesus Christ.
"Be strong". By this he does not mean that you should be a legalistic jerk who likes to bully other men around. To be strong is to seek God's glory and push others away from their sin and toward their repentance. If you are a weak man you have likely convinced yourself with the help of James Dobson, Promise Keepers, and the legion of male lesbians claiming Christ that your weakness makes you like Jesus. Jesus was meek, not weak. What that means is that I can kill you with my bare hands and eat your heart raw as a snack, but I have decided not to because I have control.
"Do everything in love". And here is the last word. Once you are on gaurd, standing firm, courageous, and strong, then you should remember to be loving. If you start with a desire to be loving you will act and think like a male lesbian. If you begin like a soldier you must end as a loving soldier.
This does not mean that you can be neglectful of your watch because you didn't want to be mean. This does not mean that you can dance around your convictions because you want people to think you are nice. This does not mean that you can back down from a confrontation when another man is in sin because that would not be loving as the psychologists define it. And it does not mean that you should be effeminate like a woman so that you can be loving. You must love. And you must love in a masculine way as a manly man.
This also means that you will show your love to men and women differently because a soldier speaks differently to a fellow soldier than he does a female civilian he is called to protect and honor.
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William Wallace II
Member   posted 02-01-2001 05:25 PM             
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"...Early in the morning he (Job) would sacrifice a burnt offering for each of them (his children), thinking, 'Perhaps my children have sinned and cursed God in their hearts.' This was Job's regular custom." - Job 1:5b
Now, a manly man and headship over his family.
If your children are wild and rebellious, it is your fault. If your kids scream at you, it is your fault. If your kids hit you, it is your fault. If your kids are so bad that you hate to take them in public, hate to have other people watch them, and hate to go to church because they continually embarass you, it is your fault.
Have your kids sinned? Of course. And, they should repent of their sin to God and those they offend.
But, so should the father. He should repent also. Why? Because he is the head of the home. Men, these are your children and their sin is also your sin.
It is pitiful to hear the whining of the age. Poor guy is such a good father and has such rotten kids. Maybe this does happen upon occasion. But, shouldn't the test of a good father be his kids?
After all, we never say, poor guy he's such a good painter but he just has such poor paintings. Or, poor guy, he's such a good driver but he keeps getting in head on collisions.
Get the point?
Look at your children. If their hearts are tender toward Christ and you, and that tenderness is demonstrated in practical loving obedience, then you are a good father. If their hearts are hard toward you and Christ, you are not a good father.
You may have naively thought that if you loved them they would be loving in return. While this does work, that love should include discipline that is loving for the purpose of not mere angry punishment, but correction for the purpose of repentance and tender honor of God and mom and dad.
Now, this does not mean that to be a good father you should become a mother. Paul is clear that a woman should have her desires directed homeward (Titus 2:3-5). Since it is your duty to feed said wife and child/ren (I Timothy 5:8) you should not have your attention directed soley homeward like your wife. This is the error of much of the overreactive thinking in our day that is encouraging men to focus on their families when they should be focusing on their savior.
You should be actively involved in your child's life. Especially in their evangelization, theological instruction, discipline, etc. all with loving headship and tender authority. As the head of your home, much of your work will be done through the delegation of authority to your wife. Therefore, it is important to work closely with your wife and ensure you are teaching her Scripture and praying over her as a pastor to ensure she is well ready to be in headship over the children and under your headship. But, you must continue to remember that you are ultimately responsible for the decisions she makes and you cannot dump your duties on her and then blame her when things fall apart.
Lastly, having children will do marvelous things for your wife. Many a single woman, or married women without children seem to believe all this talk about lines of authority and responsibility related to headship are now culturally dated and out of step with our oh so virtuous and admirable evolved present age. And, all of that changes when she becomes a mother. So, I would encourage young couples to have children sooner rather than later.
A mother discovers that she must have headship over her children if she is to maintain any order and reign in the collective sinful flesh of her children. So, she soon appreciates headship and authority and learns to submit to her husband because if she does not then the children follow her poor example and make her life a hell as she does in kind to her husband.
Any man who does not own this headship will have a wife who, like Eve, steps forward to run the family with sincere intentions and tragic consequences. She thought she was the head of the home, but with his passivity and her boldness Satan actually became the head of that home. And so it is. Men, you are either the head of your home, or Satan is. If your wife thinks it can be her then she, like Eve, is deceived.
Since the order of headship is then destroyed, the children rise up and demand to be treated as equal to the parents and the parents end up negotiating, bartering, and arguing with their children rather than lovingly disciplining and leading them. The result is self-focused children who become impossible adults because they simply do not repent but instead want to negotiate and barter with authority at every turn. The father is then tempted to yell at his wife to keep the kids under control, or justify it by saying it's just because "he's a boy" or "she's a girl", or "my parents raised me that way and I turned out great." Oh really, then why are you such a mess and why do your wife and kids act like they would kill you if they knew they'd get away with it?
All of this to say, it's an old mess that modern times have forgotten because we are biblically illiterate and the Christian leaders have often resorted to psychology over Scripture for remedies.
"Youths oppress my people, women rule over them. O my people, your guides lead you astray; they turn you from the path." - Isaiah 3:12
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William Wallace II
Member   posted 02-01-2001 05:39 PM             
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"If one part suffers, every part suffers with it..." - I Corinthians 12:26
All of this to say much of the nonsense (paricularly on the Dickification string which is seemingly for men who want to use big words and do things in general ways) on this site is insane.
You and your family are not an island cut off from the history of God's people from Adam forward. You are not an autonomous individual. Your messed up life and messed up family are really jacking up the whole universe in varying degrees, especially your local church. If you are not even in a local church, then you are double jacked and helping no one but addicted to your personal relationship with Jesus and your island of a family with it's own ways private interpretation of God's word on family matters. Enough already about yourself. I'm calling men to headship that is Christ-like in practical ways that benefit their homes and churches in such a way as to send the fragrance of Christ across the earth. Right now the odor is not fragrant, but flatulent.
Lastly, no swearing on this thread. Some guys will end up arguing about that and remaining jacked by ducking the issues.
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davidvik
Junior Member   posted 02-01-2001 09:43 PM             
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Willy...In terms of headship, what provision is there for single women? (As you know, I'm in an area of predominantly college-age students.) The general response to this has been either to plug them in as the leaders of the campus parachurches &/or local churches themselves or basically avoid the issue altogether. If I understand this issue of headship right, the church, especially where I'm working, is in no way prepared to answer this question.
So first of all, where do single "independent" women fit into the headship model?
Secondly, how does this shake out practically?
Keep on dealin', buddy...
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ReformUrAss
Member   posted 02-02-2001 01:31 AM             
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I have never seen a pastor who makes me really believe that he takes serious his own headship over his church before God. I thank you and honor you for being accountable for my sins and the sins of those who I love deeper than words can say.
I hope every other man is as serious about learning the meaning of the word "Headship" as I am. To tell you the truth the word "Headship" scares the living crap out of me. Especially since I desire being the head of so much.
Keep it coming!
I suppose I am breaking the no cussing rule just by posting here. But keep reforming my ass. I desprately need it.
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zugbot
Member   posted 02-02-2001 08:41 AM          
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"Look at your children. If their hearts are tender toward Christ and you, and that tenderness is demonstrated in practical loving obedience, then you are a good father. If their hearts are hard toward you and Christ, you are not a good father."
Could you clarify this?
If taken to an analogous conclusion re. God the Father and the people He has created, it would seem to say that God is not a good father because we, his creation, are exceedingly wicked.
Yet we know that God is a good father.
My experience (which is admittedly skewed) has left me preoccupied with the wickedness/rebellion of myself and the people/world around me to the point where I really am not shocked by the absence of “practical loving obedience” anywhere except through the rare miracle of God’s grace.
As I prepare for the possibility of eventual fatherhood, I find myself putting my house in order, growing in strong headship, and bracing myself for the likely rebellion of those I may lead.

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sniff
Member   posted 02-02-2001 09:21 AM          
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Zugbot's point is interesting. Is he married? I know that you are, Senor Dos, but I have the distinct feeling that you are leading some of the single guys here down a garden path. You paint this picture of husband and wife running through the fields of Elysium ("draw me after you and we will run together" as SOS states), and because of the husband's buffness in the Lord and the wife's quiet submissiveness, it is this fluid, smooth ballet through thigh-high wheat of Paradise.
Whatever.
I married a intelligent, kind, observant wife. And, boy, does she tell me what she thinks. And I wouldn't have it any other way. We don't think the same way, we don't communicate the same way, we don't even appreciate all of the same things (take 20 extra dollars at the end of the month - she'd spend it on dinner somewhere, I'd spend it at a movie). What happens when two godly adults don't see eye-to-eye on something? Just take a look at the 1600 posts to this bb.
Sure, there is nice model summed up by Paul - written, as pointed out by Le Deux, to one very screwed up church. But then I ask, "Would I give the same instructions to Johnny, who is a veritable idiot in everything he does, as I would to Jimmy, who does pretty well?" Will, sharpen your blade, but is it possible that Paul went to extremes because the situations in those churches warranted it?
Regardless of how you answer that (and I already know what II's answer is) the formulaic over-simplification that is stated on some of these posts are naive and misleading. Marriage is hard (but awesome, don't get me wrong) work. It is hard work because being a man is hard work. It is hard work because relationships are hard work. When it comes down to it, even if you are being all that you can be and your wife is doing the same thing, some days are going to suck. Some arguments are going to be lost, some fights are just going to happen. And in those times, as much as the golden sunrise, all is perfect, I'm in heaven times, our relationship with each other, with God, and with the church is whittled, formed, perfected.
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Pastor Mark
Administrator   posted 02-02-2001 09:33 AM          
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For single women, it would be ideal if they had a good father who loved God and loved them. Too many a Christian woman does not have a dad who is on duty looking out for her best interests. If a young woman does not have a loving and godly father in her life, then she should seek out an older man for that role (i.e. an uncle, elder of the church, godly man in the church etc.). He should be there to help fend off the parade of men who would want to manipulate her, use her for their own lusts, and then drop her without regard. Some women balk at this, but you must look at the number of young women who have been mistreated and know that their trust and optimism for men is often abused by those young men and she should have a defender and protector.
This is not legalism, it is deep love. It is sad when a single young woman has to toughen up and fight off men just to keep her purity. Also, an older man should be sure that the younger woman is learning, growing, and encouraged in Christ.I have a three year old daughter and we have had many a conversation already about this. She has a very brilliant theological mind that I am pouring Scripture into and it is my prayer that if she has the gift of teaching and leadership, as she seems to be developing, that God would use her mightily for his gospel as He has already begun to. Yesterday as I was getting ready in the morning she came in and kissed me and sat down to visit. She told me that she was going to go to school and be very smart so that one day she could get married and be a mother and teach people about Jesus and help them. My headship is intended not to stunt her, but to love and encourage her in a safe place where she can have the core of her theology and relationship with Christ sorted out and in practice before age four.
For the single women, it would be to your benefit to have a godly older man function as a loving father to you for your encouragement and protection. It will in practical ways get you close enough to a good family to also learn from their modelling, have a good wife to speak with about things you are curious of, and help you learn to relate to men in a safe and healthy context.
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Pastor Mark
Administrator   posted 02-02-2001 09:38 AM          
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God is a good Father. We are often bad children. But, I would say that God's reputation is maligned by many who claim to be His children when in fact they may not be. Are God's true children perfect? No. But do God's children have a tender and obedient heart toward Him? Yes. If they do not, they are either in rebellion for which He disciplines them to correct their error, or they may not be His children at all. If many in the church are not His children then that would explain the way they treat the Father, because He may not be their Father. As Jesus said, some have the devil for their Father. And, the crowd He was speaking to thought that God was their Father. Just something to consider.
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Viv
Junior Member   posted 02-02-2001 10:07 AM             
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To the question of a single woman's role within the church, I can only speak from experience. I am a strong, stubborn, independant, and capable woman (single). Before I understood my role as it relates to headship, I carried the full weight of the ministry I run. When it began to creep into my personal life and run me over, my pastor stepped in and offered headship over me. Nothing much has changed in the way everything looks, but the huge weight I had been carrying has now been lifted off my shoulders, and I am working at changing the way in which I minister to these women. I am still a leader within the church, but I am made stronger by the headship placed over me.
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Brother Jim
Junior Member   posted 02-02-2001 10:23 AM          
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Excellent thread WWII.
So here I am.
My family is out of order, I want to be a Man of God.
I want to repent.
I want to make a difference.
I want to show my wife and kids I am a man of God.
I have failed in the past.
Once things are out of wack, where do I begin?
What is my next step after repentence?
How do I build that trust back up with my family who has lived with me for this long not being a real man?
How much do I let them in on what I am trying to do and be?
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Pastor Mark
Administrator   posted 02-02-2001 10:57 AM          
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"If we claim we have fellowship with him yet walk in darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. But if we walk by the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son, purifies us from all sin." - I John 6-7
Brother Jim. I appreciate the forthright honesty. This is why, gentlemen, we need to avoid legalism while still providing practical solutions to teachable people.
Not knowing you or what you've done, I'll give you some general guidelines.
Begin with a day set aside for fasting and prayer. Get off somewhere where you can be alone and ask God to convict you of the specific sins you have committed against your wife, children, and Lord. Write each of them down. This may take some time and your flesh will want to distract itself by thinking about other things. Submit yourself to the Spirit of God and yield to His ministry of conviction that includes both the outer things you have done and the condition of your mind and heart with such things as lust, bitterness, etc.
When you have your pages of items, go through each one in the following process:
Conviction - yield yourself to the conviction the Spirit of God brings to you
Confession - agree with God that each of those things He convicts you of is a sin without trying to lessen or justify your actions
Repentance - ask God to forgive you and thank Him that Jesus Christ has died for each of those things that you have done. Also ask God to give you the grace to put to death those things (not just try to manage and cope with them) and have the Holy Spirit take over each of those areas (i.e. financial, sexual, bitterness, lying, etc.) and come and renew and rebuild those areas you have given over to the enemy and your own flesh.
Restitution - you must then go to everyone you have wronged and apologize to them and ask their forgiveness. With your children, if they are young you will need to use discretion on how much you tell them since some details may be too much for young ears. Your wife, however, should be told specifically what you have done and see you humbly repentant and sincerely broken. You will need to pray with her and your children and repent of how your failures have caused further sins to enter your home and family.
Maturity - once you have cleaned up the junk in your life you will then have to fill it with profitable and worthwhile things that honor God. You should be in a good Bible teaching church with male elders. You should meet with one of those godly men and seek his counsel on what to read and how to proceed in an accountable relationship with a more faithful man who can encourage, discipline, and teach you. You will want to encourage the same thing for your wife with another woman. If your sins are fairly simple (i.e. you've been lazy in your work) then a few brothers would be of good counsel and admonition. However, if your sins are faily complex (i.e. you have committed adultery on your wife) then you will need a strong and wise man that you can submit yourself to, to help God restore all that you have broken.
In all of this, what will fight you is your pride. Each man is arrogant and so we fail to confess entirely, or we partially confess, or we confess fully to God and do not disclose our sins to our wives and men of God. Or, we begin the process and then flee before we have fully been restored. All of this leads to further bondage, shame, and death.
On reading, I would recommend the following: spend some considerable time in Proverbs and commit many of them to memory. This is a tremendous book filled with practical insight. Read and memorize Scipture that relates to your particular issues so that you can begin the renewing of your mind. If your issues surround foolish living Ecclesiastes is tremendous. If your issues are sexual, the Song of Songs are wonderful. If you are unclear about the gospel go to Romans. If you are a young man, spend time in I Timothy, II Timothy, and Titus.
On books, I have been the most blessed by the works of Douglas Wilson. You can find his works on Amazon.com or at Canon Press. His is a man I first met in college shortly after coming to Christ and God is raising him up to speak frankly and biblically on some very important issues related to men and family.
May God's grace be with you. May you receive it.
[This message has been edited by Pastor Mark (edited 02-02-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Pastor Mark (edited 02-02-2001).]
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Brother Jim
Junior Member   posted 02-02-2001 11:05 AM          
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Lots of details. Lots of work!
I accept the challenge
Thank you Pastor Mark
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Squatting Bear
Member   posted 02-02-2001 12:19 PM          
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Pastor Mark,
I've been wrestling with this whole masculinity issue long before MH existed -let alone these Midrash posts, searching for answers for years; and I just wanted to say that after reading this thread I feel like I've just had my first meal in a long time.
Thank you, and thank God who is the way, the truth, and the life. There is hope.
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William Wallace II
Member   posted 02-02-2001 12:47 PM             
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"A good man leaves an inheritance for his children's childrens, but a sinners wealth is stored up for the righteous." - Proverbs 13:22
Today, practical theology on male headship as related to finances.
Your money belongs to God. Every nickel is God's. You are to give firstfruits (that means your first and best) to your God through your church as an act of worship and faith.
What is left still belongs to God and is a resource to be invested for His glory and your joy. As a man you should not consume all of your resources and thereby rob God and the generations to come after you. You should also avoid debt because Scripture declares it is a form of slavery that robs you of your freedom (Proverbs 22:7b).
Yes, even the finances of your children's children is your responsibility as the head of your home. You should be seeking to invest and save your money wisely so that one day if you should die you've got a sound investment portfolio and life insurance plan that ensures your wife will not have to take a job, throw the kids in daycare and provide for your family. You should also teach your family on financial matters so that you are leaving wisdom in addition to money.
And, you should be saving so that one day when your children are in need for such things as an education or a home you can kiss them, tell them you love them and were thinking of them before they were born, and write them a check and quote Proverbs to show you embraced the wisdom of God.
And, when you are old and gray you should not get one of those foolish bumper stickers that says "We are spending our children's inheritance" because you are not a foolish pagan. Instead, you should also rejoice in the opportunity to financially bless your children's children.
As a newly married man I began a retirement account and large whole life insurance policy to ensure that should something happen to me my children and my children's children would be blessed. I recently also purchased my first home and am now refinancing to lower my interest rate. This home is an investment both in and for my family and future generations. I have been very clear with my daughter that I am saving for her future. I told her that one day she and her brother would get our home as a gift. Being a good three year-old investor she immediately told me that she would sell it for the money.
I also have no plan of retiring because I do not see it in Scripture. My goal is not to take Viagra, buy a boat, golf and get a really big tv. But, I do long for the day when I can serve Christ without collecting any salary and giving my money to my grandsons so that they can plant their churches. Right now I'm thinking about sitting in a pew and hearing my grandson preach the gospel and it makes me cry.
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sniff
Member   posted 02-02-2001 01:57 PM          
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Sure got quiet around here. I know you are still out there. I know you don't all feel "called" to give. It isn't your ministry. If God intended you to give he'd have made you a millionaire, right?
All righty, then. Let's start going through a couple of scriptures.
Leviticus 27:30 - A tenth of everything that comes from the land belongs to the Lord. Feel a little uncomfortable about whether this is a law we are held to?
Malachi - old testament - God does two things. He calls you a robber if you don't give, and he promises to open treasures to you if you do. He calls for us to throw down - "Test me in this" He says. Check it out - Malachi 3:6-12.
New Testament - Jesus validates the idea of tithing and giving over and over again in the gospels - can't find them? Post and I'll point them out.
And finally, in Paul's instructions to the church in Corinthians (1 Cor 9:1-14) he clearly speaks about giving as being a global function of the church. That we are to support our ministers and missionaries. Yet our pastors are dirt poor, have second jobs, scrape by, itinerate from other churches. Here we are in Seattle, one of the wealthiest cities in the wealthiest country in the world, and our pastors - at your church and mine - are scratching out a living. And I'd really like to know why I feel so all alone in this.
Sure, once in a while they get a "special gift" from the congregation. Yeah, I've seen those - 1 person give 90% of everything that is raised.
I would LOVE to hear why you don't give. I would love to hear why you don't "tithe on the increase." So, if you are scared, make up a new handle, log on and tell us about it.
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William Wallace II
Member   posted 02-02-2001 02:16 PM             
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It does tend to get real quiet when we walk away from the world of ideas and finger pointing and bottom line things in some practical ways. That is another sign of a male lesbian. Men love to talk about other men and the ideas of other men, but they resist becoming a man, reconsidering their ideas, and living them out practically.
How about this. If you are a young single man working dead end jobs, barely making ends meet, and trying to slack as long as possible what in the world are you thinking? Why haven't you pursued a career? And don't tell me it's because you are in school. Some of you are pursuing real degrees, but many of you are on the seven year I haven't declared my major and am prolonging high school as long as I can plan by taking classes that don't relate to anything but tickle my little fancy and make me feel like a really well well educated male lesbian circular track.
Why is your checkbook never balanced, your mailbox filled with bounced check statements, and your friends upset that you are always late with the rent and bumming money from them? Do you think one day you will wake up with lots of money and a good mind for sound investment? Do you think one day you'll write a fat check and repay to God everything you stole?
Do you think that maybe you are still single because you are a joke?
[This message has been edited by William Wallace II (edited 02-02-2001).]
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sniff
Member   posted 02-02-2001 02:39 PM          
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Ouch, Will.
I don't stand to make anything from this. I am pretty sure that there's nobody from my church reading this, tho' I am pretty sure that there are people not from MH reading this.
There is, in other words, nothing in this for me. So quit telling yourself that there is a couple of pastors looking to hit the big time. I ain't a pastor, but I do have a job, support my family, tithe to my church, give to missionaries around the world, give to charities, and give when the special gift buckets get passed around - and love the opportunity for every check that I write, and every dollar I drop in. And no, I am not rich.
I'll bet though, that if you have a legitimate relationship with your pastor, he would sit down with you, and tell you all about the finances in the church. When that group from Illinois is scheduled to stop supporting. How many people on average there are in the services, how many people are "members", how much rent, lights, phones, computers, and that cute little projector machine costs, and finally, how much money he takes home and then tithes - that's right, tithes, out of. And when you are going through this, you'll notice that when you add up the single men, the married men, and the single women (not widows or orphans); you'll find that the average income of the 175 regulars must be something like $2/hour. And this in a city where rent for a 1000 sq. ft. apartment in the swank Capitol Hill district is $2000/month.
What's up, guys? I'm still waiting for a response.
[This message has been edited by sniff (edited 02-02-2001).]
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William Wallace II
Member   posted 02-02-2001 02:47 PM             
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Sniff. I appreciate the attempts to pull some folks out for a chat. It is an important one. Jesus says where our cash goes is a healthy indicator of who/what we love most. If worship is sacrifice, then whatever we sacrifice the most for is likely our object of worship. Somehow many young men have disconnected the practical dimensions of their faith from their God. It is a form of gnosticism whereby as long as I really love God deeply in my spiritual heart then my money, body, time, food, drink and the like are not really spiritual things connected to my worship because I have a personal invisible and immaterial relationship with God.
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Jason Hickner
Member   posted 02-02-2001 03:35 PM             
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uh, i'll chime in.
i don't think i've ever been part of a conversation about tithing. in churches i've been in it's always something you're not supposed to talk about.
i do freelance work, so my paycheck comes 2 or three times a year, when a project completes. the first time i figured out what i should tithe from 6 months pay, it was pretty tough. now, though, tithing is something i look forward to. i guess for me, it's all part of a system. i make decisions in my business based on prayer and what i feel lead to do, not so much on what makes sense to me. so, at the end of the day, when somehow things have turned out not only ok, but better than i would have hoped, there's no way i can make myself believe that it's any of my doing. some would say this has caused a lot of problems for me. business partners have left because of it, and so on. well, that's why you shouldn't have non-christian business partners. the way we christians live is wacko. there's a verse, i forget where, that says "take no thought for your body, nor your life." that verse changed my life. being able to tithe is very closely linked to pride. if you are not letting god lead your life, than you'll have a hard time justifying to yourself why god "deserves" your money. let him lead you, though, and it's a different story. it's like this, if you are trusting god for the way in which you make money, than it's going to make a lot more sense why you need to give it back. it becomes a lot clearer that it's not yours to keep.
wow, this is a very uncomfortable subject to talk about. i feel like i'm talking about my paycheck with my coworkers.
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sniff
Member   posted 02-02-2001 03:38 PM          
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I seem to remember that there is some discussion going on about what to look for in a godly woman - haven't been following the string because I already have mine. But...Ladies, one of the things you should look for in your godly man is regular tithing.
1) If this guy really believes God's word, but isn't generous with God, what makes you think he is going to be generous with you when he is done wooing you?
2) More to the point, if God promises to open His treasure-store if we tithe, but the man in question doesn't tithe - what does this tell us about how God is going to bless him?
3) And finally, if God calls him a mere robber, what is it that you see in him?
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Zippity Doo Dah
Junior Member   posted 02-02-2001 04:43 PM          
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So, questions, questions, questions for the Brave Heart or the Runny Nose. or anyoneelse that feels qualified (please state qual's truthfully) to answer these questions, questions, questions of quantification. Like:
Do you tithe on the gross or the net?
Should I tithe before or after taxes?
Is it ethical to take tax deductions for my tithes?
Is 5% still a tithe?
I'm a student, poor, say, no income for the heck of it? Should I tithe?
What is the difference between that oft-quoted phrase "tithes and offerings"?
Why should I tithe to the local church - or are you not implying that?
Should I give monies to local charities or ministries - for example, street ministries - or direct them through the body, local body, the community church in which I am involved...?
If I am a woman should I tithe - after all, I am not a "head"?
What about my friends whose husbands don't believe?
And why did Mr. Snuffles indicate (not widows and orphans)?
And Billy, if you ain't got the cash, you ain't got the cash. So I might have to write the big check later - what's wrong with that?
It makes me feel so creepy and judged to know that my pastor and elders know how much I do or do not give. So, do you, would you judge or look down on me for not?
What would the church do with all the extra CASH that it recieved if everybody by some vast and overwhelming miracle from the LORD on high started giving like they "should"?
Finally, the church is just a business anyway, right? So aren't you kind of making it look like people give to the church to make themselves feel better? Kind of like, "We sell feel-good!"?
Is it that important to give, REALLY, or are you just looking out for your own neck?
Can't I just feed and clothe apart from the church?
AND FINALLY - the huffer quoted 1 Cor 9:1-14 - very clever, BUT, right after that Paul talks about how HE didn't take that. He was after all, a tent-maker, right? hmmmmmmm?
And shouldn't we all - especially pastors and missionaries - strive to be like Paul????
Looking forward to your answers, answers, answers to my questions, questions, questions of quantification. ciao
:P
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solar
Junior Member   posted 02-02-2001 04:45 PM          
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Many apologies for taking us off the topic of tithing, but I am intrigued by the first few posts.
This string is music to my ears after laboring through the pussified nation string. Finally, some practical questions/answers!
I am a young married man just learning how to be the head of my household. I would like to tell you a story about keys, and ask for the advice of my married brothers.
My wife does not like keychains. Her preferred method of key storage is to keep individual keys in the coin section of her purse (or in a pocket, on the dresser, in a gym bag, etc). I counseled her against this, but respected her difference of opinion.
A year ago her soccer bag was stolen off our back porch. That soccer bag had our car key in it. A few hours later the car was gone.
We recovered our car a few weeks later (flat tires, ditched a few blocks from our house, full of heroin paraphenalia), but we had to sell the car because someone out there still had the key. I told her that she needed to start using a keychain. A small, practical step that I felt needed to happen.
She resisted (she is a VERY strong woman) but eventually resigned herself to keychain usage.
A few months later, back to individual keys. I admit, this annoyed me, but I was silent. Often, she would misplace one key or another and ask to borrow my keys. I would glare at her and tell her she needed to keep her keys on a chain. She would glare back and thank me for my concern, but assure me that it was her business what she did with her keys.
After reading through said pussified nation string, much has changed in my life. I realize that I have no idea how to be a man and lead my wife. I realize I have no idea how to interact with women in general, be they mother, sister, or wife. I have tried harder to serve her, I have repented from sin, and I have prayed earnestly for wisdom in leading.
I have also felt convicted about the keys. A small matter, I know.
Last week when she asked me for my keys, I handed them over and told her she needed to get a keychain. She laughed and shrugged it off.
I told her the next day that I wanted her to get a keychain and keep her keys on it. She laughed and shrugged it off.
Last night I asked her for her keys. She gave them to me. I told her she could have them back when she promised she would keep them on a key chain. I told her I loved her, but I felt the security of our house was at risk in an individual key situation. I spent half an hour explaining myself and my reasoning. When it got circular, I gently told her it was not a request.
To say the least, she is unhappy with me. She will not speak with me unless I apologize for trying to overstep my boundaries as her husband. She insists I have no right to command her on such a trivial issue.
I encouraged her to speak with the elders.
I love my wife, and I am very far from domineering. I am also a bit of a pussy, but I want to be a good leader and a good husband to her.
Married men of God, kick my ass because I need it so bad. Am I overcompensating for my lack of manhood by squabbling over minutia?
Is she a contentious woman that needs to submit to her husband?
I await your prayerful responses.
-solar, man of the Adam.
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Rusty
Member   posted 02-02-2001 04:59 PM             
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Solar
Marriage is not a dictatorship (please feel free to check out my rant What's Rusty's Problem Anyway? and Mark's reply.) Marriage is like the present U.S. Senate were there is a 50/50 tie. Men are like the Republicans (almost always right but always getting bad press) and women are like the Democrats (wel-meaning but you know.) In order for anything to get done there should and has to be compromise. If there is a 50/50 tie the Republicans can whip out DICK Cheney to brake the tie and men can too. But if you use DICK too much the Democrats can filibuster everything and nothing is accomplished.
In this particular situation I would ask her if there is any particular pet peeve that she has with you (i.e leaving the toilet seat up, farting) and see if some quid pro quo can be arranged.
-Rusty
Edited for poor grammer and spelling
[This message has been edited by Rusty (edited 02-02-2001).]
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sniff
Member   posted 02-02-2001 05:04 PM          
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Ah, mon ami. Such are the travails of love, no?
Your wife will undoubtedly be very displeased about this post, were she to find out about it, no? Your wife sounds a lot like mine. Honh, honh! (Zat vus French).
And in all seriousness, as a married man, I can relate. I must say you handled it well. You were gentle, you were concerned, you were reasonable, and finally you were strong. Directing her to the elders of your church, and I am assuming that they are good, thoughtful, "disinterested" elders, was an excellent move. After all, if you both submit to their decision, then it will be settled.
This is, however, the situation of which I was speaking earlier. That it isn't this cut and dry, I am a man of God who prays 5 hours a day, reads the Psalms in church, leads a small group, tithes regularly and am spiritually buff. Sometimes there are going to be conflicts. But ESPECIALLY in those conflicts your relationship is made.
Your response and concern and tenderness is downright studly if you ask me - which you kind of did. Though I am quite interested in what Wallace II, Will will say.
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Rusty
Member   posted 02-02-2001 05:09 PM             
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Solar,
Quick note. Do not compromise too much like, the Divorce guy Jeremy Q.
-Rusty
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SlimeFlux
Junior Member   posted 02-02-2001 05:19 PM          
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If marriage is analogous to the legislative branch of the US government, I'm never getting married. When was the last time the Democrats willfully submitted to the republicans?
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Pastor Mark
Administrator   posted 02-02-2001 05:31 PM          
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"The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double [financial] honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, 'Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain.' and 'The worker deserves his wages." - I Timothy 5:17-18
I'll take the question straight up.
I do not believe the Old Testament tithe is binding upon believers today. The Old Testament tithe including a flat 10% of your gross income of the top. In addition to that were various offerings, festivals and the like that would require an additional portion of your income calculated to be as high as 17% for a total of 27% of your gross (hence the concept of giving first to the Lord).
As a practical matter, however, I've always thought that the 10% was a good place to start. In 2 Corinthians 8-9 Paul says the giving should be sacrificial, regular, and cheerful. This is a conscience issue for you. God is concerned about both the amount that you give, and the spirit with which you give it. If you are a broke college student it may not take much money for you to be sacrificial. The widows few cents were a generous act of worship according to Jesus. I would say, however, that you should do something financially to be faithful in this area, especially in your poverty as 2 Corinthians 8:1-4 indicates. It is a demonstration of your love for and faith in God.
As to pastors working for free, there are likely some circumstances whereby a man should. But, in a society such as ours where the people in the church make good money to expect others to work 80 hours a week for free seems rather unfair to those pastors and their families. Would you expect the same of your Christian mechanic, your Christian college professor, your Christian doctor, your Christian car dealer and the like? Work for free boys, and don't complain because you're doing it for Jesus. If you think churches are poorly lead today can you guess what kind of men would take such a job and what the churches would then look like?
For the first few years of my church I raised my salary entirely from the outside and did work for free thanks to the generous help of outside churches (notice that someone always has to pick up the tab). At present I have two part-time jobs in addition to my pastorate to allow me to make enough to live in the city near my church, keep my wife at home with our kids, tithe to our ministry, and open our home to about 60 people a week for Bibles studies, counseling, meals, and buy wedding and baby gifts for the masses etc. As a man, I was built to work and I do not mind working and never have. My father hung drywall for 25 years to feed our family and after watching him literally break his back and undergo surgery I'll never whine about my job. I love what I do and have no regrets.
Lastly, a lot of pastors duck this issue. But, my experience suggests it is only because they are proud and afraid of what people might think of them. What they end up doing is saving face with their people and losing face with their family as their wife and children get embittered against the church because their father doesn't make enough to pull things together and mom ends up taking a part-time job to make up for the sin of the men who failed to tithe and her husband who failed to teach and discipline them on the issue.

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Rusty
Member   posted 02-02-2001 06:23 PM             
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SlimeFlux,
No one said marraige was easy hence Mark bringing up what a real man is.
-Rusty
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Pastor Mark
Administrator   posted 02-02-2001 06:34 PM          
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Solar.
Now you know why the buck must stop somewhere. A man can certainly use his authority to be a jerk, but he can also use it to enforce wisdom and order in a firm yet loving way. Your example is a perfect illustration of why marriage and decision making cannot be a 50/50 deal. Why? Because upon occasion you will disagree and someone needs to make the decision and be responsible for it. You are not out of line. And, to your wife this is not about keys and chains, it is about headship and submission. Some men on this site would sneer at such an outlook, but they would also naively think that they and their wife will always agree about everything and that sin is not a part of their life and that they will be in complete harmony all the time.
And, they likely also wait up for the Easter Bunny, tooth fairy, and Santa Claus to tuck them in bed every night.
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fakeout
Junior Member   posted 02-02-2001 11:25 PM             
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i am headship
[This message has been edited by fakeout (edited 02-03-2001).]
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for the love of god
Junior Member   posted 02-03-2001 12:55 AM             
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huh?
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zugbot
Member   posted 02-03-2001 07:28 AM          
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-- OFF TOPIC --
Fakeout --
Stay on topic. You did not post anything related to this thread that had not been addressed elsewhere.
Your distractions steal resources away from from the mentoring of Godly fathers and husbands.
If you seriously think that you have an issue you can 1) start another thread addressing it, or 2) go to the person directly.
Your time may not be valuable, but mine is.
-- OFF TOPIC --
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zugbot
Member   posted 02-03-2001 07:50 AM          
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Solar --
Thanks for the real world example/question. Anyone who calls it voyeuristic can stick a sock in it.
It is not.

Funny how there seemed to be a post up here last night at around 7 pm that said the question/background solar posted was a little too private, but now it, like other posts on this board, has been edited or deleted by it’s poster. Please people – if you’re gonna post something, make sure you to leave it up so that the flow of the thread stays linear. Your pride is not that important.

You displayed tact in your question and, from your description of events, it sounds like you walk it out in grace and authority.
--
Everybody else --
We as men (and yes women for that matter) need to tactfully chime in with encouragement/examples/wisdom/warnings from our own lives so that we can practically walk through this issue.
How else are we going to teach the skill of discernment so that men know they are not being violent or dishonoring by walking in the graceful authority God has called them to.
I’ll post specific examples from my life later that involve kittens and lesbians. I’d do it now, but I’m working on the tact part…
It’s hard to talk about kittens and lesbians in a real world experience without sounding voyeuristic.
-- zugbot

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olderthannoah
Member   posted 02-03-2001 04:55 PM             
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my two cents...as a husband & father, there is nothing more frightening to me than the idea that someday I might consider the authority that the Lord has given me and tell Him, "Thanks, I'll take it from here..."
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olderthannoah
Member   posted 02-03-2001 04:57 PM             
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by the way, my thoughts & fervent prayers are with you fellas right now...without being too melodramatic, this is no small duty that you are pledging yourselves to undertake.
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ReformUrAss
Member   posted 02-03-2001 09:39 PM             
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Question about headship pastor.
Does headship apply when there has been no clear covenant established? Like in my ministry. I teach kids in prison. They respect me and listen to my instruction. But they don't call me pastor or act like I am in a clear role of authority over them. I hold them accountable as a more mature believer but it doesn't go beyond that.
Will God hold me accountable for their sins? How much responsibility is on one in a role of leadership of this type. I know James 3 says I will be held to a higher standard by God because I teach, but does that mean "headship".
Does one who is in headship have responsibility to get his respect for that duty?

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Pastor Mark
Administrator   posted 02-04-2001 08:59 AM          
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Fakeout, thank you for editing your post. A few days ago I was going to post and request that you edit it to keep this thread clean and on topic. But, I prayed for you and asked that God would ask you to do so. Thank you for heeding your conscience. I tend to be a hot head and if I blow off a response I usually regret it about an hour later, and so I do relate. Thanks again.
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xrizxomiz
Member   posted 02-05-2001 11:51 AM             
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On the subject of headship, I want to throw
out a few questions/comments on the nature of Christ's headship and what effect this has on His bride, the church. I realize this is not the particular direction this thread is intended to take, but I think it bears directly on the issue of headship in all other relationships. As Van Til used to say, "Christ's headship is creativley constructive [archtypal], while all other headships are receptively reconstructive [echtypal]."
Does the church's missional mandate include, but is in no way exhausted by, headship over all things?
After reading and reflecting on Ephesians 1:18-23, it became apparent to me that the Church is called to a position of headship that is the direct result of Christ's headship over all things. The difficulty in these verses is discerning what is meant by "22And He [the Father of glory, v.17b] put all things in subjection under His feet [our Lord Jesus Christ, v.17a], and gave Him as head over all things *to the church*,23which is *His body*, the fullness of Him who fills all in all." It seems that Paul is describing a relationship wherein the body of Christ [the church] is called and ordained by the Father to participate in the Headship of Christ over all things. This participation (for the lack of a better word) necessarily involves becoming "the fullness of Him who fills all in all" (v.23b, cf. 3:9-11).
This view of the church and its status/role in the history of God's redemptive plan(s) from Genesis to Revelation, is what is known as a "High Ecclesiology". I believe this view of the church was held by Augustine, many of the Reformers, and most of the Puritans. In today's theological conundrum, this view of the Church is associated with Postmillennialism.
So whithout straying too far off the subject of this thread, are we being faithful to the biblical testimony concerning headship when we teach such a weak and ineffectual view of the church's role and responsibility to participate in Christ's headship over all things?
BTW, I think Mars Hill teaches a High Christology but is inconsistent when it teaches the final defeat/apostasy of the church. I guess in this case we can thank God for the good of our inconsistencies while we blame ourselves for the bad of our inconsistencies
"Ecclesia Reformata, Semper Reformanda Est"
 Author  Topic:   Headship 
Pastor Mark
Administrator   posted 02-05-2001 09:37 PM          
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We'll be starting another thread to work through issues related to scriptural reformed theology wherein topics such as this can get more devoted attention. It will be a separate topic area that will allow multiple threads in various related areas (i.e. sin, election, gospel, church, eschatology, etc.). This thread is largely for guys who have not yet mastered their own home and are therefore not ready to read dominion theology, impose Old Testament law, and rule over cities in Jesus' name. They should start with governing their pants, bride, kids, yard, and checkbook first.
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Erocka N. Rolla
Junior Member   posted 02-06-2001 12:07 AM             
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Man, I was getting all psyched to start ruling over a city or two.

Perhaps later, after I've mastered my pants.

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zugbot
Member   posted 02-06-2001 07:53 AM          
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I want to say from the outset that the stories I tell from my experience are not told to evoke your sympathy. I tell them in hopes that we can ferret these abstract concepts of headship out into the light (illustration > illumine > shed light on). So that we can give them a good look under the lamp. So that we can fit the worthy ones for shoes, lace them up, and hit the road.

As promised -- stories of kittens.
(For those coming to the game late, a point of context -- I am not married now, but was for 6.5 years to a beautiful intelligent Christ claiming woman who decided 2 years ago that she didn’t want to be married to me anymore. Now on with the story…)
A couple of years into our marriage, we got a kitten. A few days into kittenhood I found myself saying, “Honey, I don't think putting the kitten outside unsupervised is a good idea."
(There were lots of reasons that I thought this would be obvious to anyone familiar with our neighborhood -- Busy street. Roaming dogs. Kitten eating owls.)
But my suggestion didn’t seem to take. The kitten continued to be put out unsupervised to do its kittenly things.
Aware that I am a big guy with a loud voice and a stubborn temperament (and not wanting to be an insensitive overbearing know-it-all blow-hard husband), I let it slide.
A couple of weeks later I stepped up to a more reasoned approach -- "Don't you think there's a lot of dogs in the neighborhood to be putting the kitten outside by itself?"
(This is after all the era of the self-reasoned man where we need to be allowed to figure everything out on our own personal timetable -- so that we can own decisions for ourselves, so that we can be self directed Americans.)
Well, you (the cinema weaned public who were not at all surprised by the sixth sense, et. al.) probably guessed it -- the kitten continued to go outside unsupervised and pretty soon we had a dead kitten.
But that’s not all we had -- this package came complete with a crying wife who was sad that her kitten was dead who wondered why her husband was so mean.
We went through 1 kitten and 1 cat this way before we switched to big dogs.
I figured -- well at least dogs are more robust.

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olderthannoah
Member   posted 02-06-2001 08:41 AM             
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Mark, could you explain Paul's meaning behind calling the woman the "glory of the man" (1 Cor. 11:7)?
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Pastor Mark
Administrator   posted 02-06-2001 09:43 AM          
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"...As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church." - I Corinthians 14:32b-35
Today, headship and theology.
Paul's words to a rebellious church in regards to gender and subsequent roles for men and women in the family, church, and bedroom sounds like a war cry in our present night of like darkness. In addition to the rather unblushing wholesale condemnation of female preaching in the church, Paul includes a high call to Christian husbands.
Paul had already declared that the families and church family were to live under their God ordained hierarchy of authority in chapter 11. He is there clear that God the Father is in final authority over all, and that His authority is delegated through a chain of command to Jesus, husbands, and then wives. Therefore, anyone rejecting male headship and female submission is also declaring war on God's own essence and has departed a Trinitarian theology in favor of deism and is encouraging husbands and wives to follow the same proud rebellion against God as the fallen angels now known as demons, says Paul.
Nonetheless, in I Corinthians 11 we are also told that women are allowed to speak in church, providing it is in appropriate ways exercised with submission to the authorities (Father, Son, husband or father) God has placed over them. In I Corinthians 14 we are told that women should not be disruptive within the gathered congregation of the church by asking questions of or disagreeing with the pastor in a contentious way.
Paul's solution to the strong female desire for Scripture study and theological inquiry is affirmed, under headship. It is expected that a woman who has a question about Scripture and desires to learn should have the opportunity to have her questions answered.
By her husband.
In her home.
Therefore, as head of his home it is the husbands duty to pastor this little congregation that God has given him. He is to ensure that the Scriptures are taught in his home, that questions regarding God are answered, and that his wife and children do not need to run to the women's pastor or youth pastor every time they read something in their Bible that they are uncertain of.
Men, the burden of your headship is clear. You are to know the Scriptures well enough to teach your wife, and have study habits good enough to keep you ahead of her so that she can come to you with confidence knowing that you will likely know the answer to her question. And, if you do not you have her question you should have a library and network of other men suffficient for you to discover the answer to her question.
You cannot duck your burden. If God has given you a wife who is studious and wise then God is calling you to pick up your pace and stop being outran by your wife. If your wife is not studious or wise, you will need, by God's grace, to increase her appetite for the things of God. Praying over her regularly to exercise loving headship may be a good place to begin.
Lastly, if you are a single man you will need to seek a woman who you can pastor. Therefore, if you are undisciplined and lazy in your studies and decide to marry a very wise and studious woman to compensate for your error you will not be fixing your problem, but simply multiplying your unfaithfulness and shame.

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Rusty
Member   posted 02-06-2001 10:38 AM             
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Pastor Mark,
Before you drag us all back to the pre-civil war days to our Amish past, it would be nice if you would not take scripture completely out of context. 1 Corinthians 14 is about speaking in tongues and people prophesying.
So, if you start speaking in tongues and prophesying and my wife has a bone to pick with you, I will tell her to shut her trap until we get home, otherwise I will let her speak-up.
You know giving women the right to vote and own property was not such a hot idea.
Edited because I put 15 instead of 14 but argument remains the same.
[This message has been edited by Rusty (edited 02-06-2001).]
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mikey
Member   posted 02-06-2001 11:00 AM          
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correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't pastor Mark refer to I Corinth. 14? I think the passage he mentions is bookended nicely by verse 33, "For God is not the author of confusion but of peace..." and verse 40, "Let all things be done decently and in order."
I wonder if Paul is instructing the church on speaking in tongues, or on orderly church meetings?
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Rusty
Member   posted 02-06-2001 11:31 AM             
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(1 Corinthians 14) Pursue love and strive for the spiritual gifts, and especially that you may prophesy. 2 For those who speak in a tongue do not speak to other people but to God; for nobody understands them, since they are speaking mysteries in the Spirit. 3 On the other hand, those who prophesy speak to other people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation. 4 Those who speak in a tongue build up themselves, but those who prophesy build up the church. 5 Now I would like all of you to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. One who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be built up. 6 Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you speaking in tongues, how will I benefit you unless I speak to you in some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or teaching? 7 It is the same way with lifeless instruments that produce sound, such as the flute or the harp. If they do not give distinct notes, how will anyone know what is being played? 8 And if the bugle gives an indistinct sound, who will get ready for battle? 9 So with yourselves; if in a tongue you utter speech that is not intelligible, how will anyone know what is being said? For you will be speaking into the air. 10 There are doubtless many different kinds of sounds in the world, and nothing is without sound. 11 If then I do not know the meaning of a sound, I will be a foreigner to the speaker and the speaker a foreigner to me. 12 So with yourselves; since you are eager for spiritual gifts, strive to excel in them for building up the church. 13 Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue should pray for the power to interpret. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unproductive. 15 What should I do then? I will pray with the spirit, but I will pray with the mind also; I will sing praise with the spirit, but I will sing praise with the mind also. 16 Otherwise, if you say a blessing with the spirit, how can anyone in the position of an outsider say the "Amen" to your thanksgiving, since the outsider does not know what you are saying? 17 For you may give thanks well enough, but the other person is not built up. 18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you; 19 nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind, in order to instruct others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue. 20 Brothers and sisters, do not be children in your thinking; rather, be infants in evil, but in thinking be adults. 21 In the law it is written, "By people of strange tongues and by the lips of foreigners I will speak to this people; yet even then they will not listen to me," says the Lord. 22 Tongues, then, are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is not for unbelievers but for believers. 23 If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24 But if all prophesy, an unbeliever or outsider who enters is reproved by all and called to account by all. 25 After the secrets of the unbeliever's heart are disclosed, that person will bow down before God and worship him, declaring, "God is really among you." 26 What should be done then, my friends? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up. 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn; and let one interpret. 28 But if there is no one to interpret, let them be silent in church and speak to themselves and to God. 29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said. 30 If a revelation is made to someone else sitting nearby, let the first person be silent. 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged. 32 And the spirits of prophets are subject to the prophets, 33 for God is a God not of disorder but of peace. (As in all the churches of the saints, 34 women should be silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as the law also says. 35 If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church. 36 Or did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only ones it has reached?) 37 Anyone who claims to be a prophet, or to have spiritual powers, must acknowledge that what I am writing to you is a command of the Lord. 38 Anyone who does not recognize this is not to be recognized. 39 So, my friends, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues; 40 but all things should be done decently and in order.
[This message has been edited by Rusty (edited 02-06-2001).]
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olderthannoah
Member   posted 02-06-2001 03:48 PM             
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Rusty...even though Paul's focus in chapter 14 is directed specifically at the proper use of tongues and prophecy within the church, I don't see how you can't read vv 33-34 and not see Paul tying it in to the concept of headship that he teaches just three chapters earlier. Plus, if we don't like the meaning that Mark reads in Paul's words here, what do you do with 1 Timothy 2:11?
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Pastor Mark
Administrator   posted 02-06-2001 05:58 PM          
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Rusty, the context of I Corinthians 14 is orderly worship when the church comes together (see verse 26). There worship was not orderly because people were babbling in tongues like fools, prophets were spouting off at random, and women were interrupting and disrespecting. In sum, no one respected the authority of the elders and everyone was out of line. So, God addressed each of these issues in turn to return the church service to order so that God would be properly worshipped (see verse 40). The reason this was done was to ensure that personal agendas died so that the entire church could be edified (see verses 5, 12, 19, 28).
Lastly, don't knock the Amish. They are looking better every day.
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joyful slime
Junior Member   posted 02-06-2001 10:34 PM          
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It just shows you what happens when women
take over a church. That's when all the
weirdness starts. Paul told them to sit
down and shut up because they were flopping
around like those people on the Benny Hill,
I mean Hinn, show.
But we all know we can get carried away by
our emotions. Might be a good idea not to
limit Paul to only referring to tongues
speaking. I think this was just the extreme
example of what happens when churches get
carnal and start elevating one man over another. That idolatry seems to be the
cause of what went wrong in Corinth.
There's too many stars in the church world.
Too many speakers and book writers. Too many conferences. These people should perhaps consider staying home more. They
just play into the enemy's hands because
as soon as they get off the plane, there's
some group ready to worship them, flatter them, smile at them, give them money, free
pizza ad infinitum. All of desire to live
godly in Christ will suffer persecution.
Quite the opposite today.
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xrizxomiz
Member   posted 02-06-2001 11:27 PM             
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Mark wrote: "We'll be starting another thread to work through issues related to scriptural reformed theology wherein topics such as this" [snip]
...you mean topics like *headship* within the covenantal relationship between Christ and His bride? That is, the entire book of Ephesians.
[snip]"...separate topic area that will allow multiple threads in various related areas"
Separate, yet related. I think I can dig it. Kinda like round squares and one-ended sticks. Except, I believe based on the passage I cited from Ephesians, these topics are more related than they are separate. Yes?
"Let no man separate what God has brought together."
Yes.
Like a good marriage, good theology works together as a whole or not at all. A piece-meal approach to defending and explaining headship will only feed the men for a few days. They'll starve for lack of vision if you don't show them the "big picture" (i.e., the meta-ecclesiology of Ephesians.) Let the poor men bite off more than they can swallow so they'll learn for themselves the tremendous responsibility of being heirs of God's kingdom (Jms 2:5). If this sounds like too high of a calling for those who "should start with governing their pants, bride, kids, yard, and checkbook first.", that's only because it is. God hasn't given us all this because we deserved it, but because our covenant Head has earned it and decides to share it with His wife. Don't allow the irresponsible wife to get in the way of her responsible Husband lavishing her with blessing upon blessing (Eph 1:7-8, 19a, 3:17-21), only because she doesn't deserve it.
Maybe we should start talking about headship as it relates to all things, since this is where Holy Writ presents Christ as our head *over all things*.
Besides, based on the last few posts to this thread, if you don't start movin' this thing back towards "Headship" soon, you're bound for a messy debate over those wonderful gifts of the Spirit  If you really wanna keep things on track I would highly suggest not goin' there. It's been the death of many a bbs.
"Just takin' a little time outta my day to make a little noise for Jesus"
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Rusty
Member   posted 02-07-2001 07:27 AM             
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I will have to agree with much of what xrizxomiz said. I realize we are getting a little off track but my wife and I are getting so angered by the backwards thinking of our pastor, that we have reached a temporary standstill with our faith. If it is necessary to go backward in order to go forward so be it.
I Corinthians 14:33-35 I think we are all familiar enough with and if not, look up above where I posted it before. In my Bible it ties it with I Corinthians 11:5
5 but any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled disgraces her head--it is one and the same thing as having her head shaved. 6 For if a woman will not veil herself, then she should cut off her hair; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or to be shaved, she should wear a veil.
And the verse is footnoted, "h. The attitude in 11:5 is more positive, which diminishes the importance of this prohibition, linked as it is with the social context of the time."
If this is the new social paradigm of our church, then women should be veiled. If you check out versus 11:4,7 Mark you should not have been wearing a hat while teaching! Golly, that is obviously not far enough! The lovely redheaded women that sings and leads us in prayer, at the 10 o'clock service will have to stop. Most especially because she has red hair, the color of the Devil!
Nonsense I tell you.
And before you whip out 1 Corinthians 11:3
3 But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the husband is the head of his wife, and God is the head of Christ.
I think it would be wise to include 1 Corinthians 11:11-12
11 Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man or man independent of woman. 12 For just as woman came from man, so man comes through woman; but all things come from God.
Why did we bother leaving the Roman Catholic Church?? Why not call ourselves Marshill Presbyterian? Are you so hell bent to establish a ridiculous hierarchy because most of the people in Marshill seem incapable of straightening out their pathetic lives themselves?
"Put down the Gameboy and stop masturbating and you will have a mail-order wife that will be subject to your every whim."
If a man and woman that marry want that kind of SMBD relationship, hey that is fine with me. If they want to go back to a time before electricity, so be it. But if someone in the church tells me I should muzzle my wife, I going to send their teeth through the back of their head! What kind of manly man are you that you have to build yourself up by putting women down. Everyone should develop a personal relationship with Jesus without having go through and elder/man/priest to get to Jesus.
I believe Galatians 3 (not just verse 28), is a woderful place to concentrating rather than 1 Corithians.
Edited to censor my language.

[This message has been edited by Rusty (edited 02-07-2001).]
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Rusty
Member   posted 02-07-2001 07:34 AM             
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P.S. I really do not enjoy arguing the left side of the argument. I really like Mark as a person and God has truly blessed him with the power of speaking and teaching. But he is human.
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Rusty
Member   posted 02-07-2001 08:39 AM             
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Olderthannoah,
Before you look exclusively at 1 Timothy 2:11 it is good to start at the beginning of that thought. 1 Timothy 2:8 states, "I desire, then, that ...." an he continues with a laundry list of things that should be done. This is Paul's laundry list of things he --not He-- would like done. It does not say, "Thus says the Lord..." So I do not consider this to be divine revelation.
I believe that Paul so sick of the confused and mindless sheep that he was leading (it appears Mark feels the same way) that he quickly threw down some quick ground rules based on the customs of the time, to stop the endless chaos and constant whining.

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mikey
Member   posted 02-07-2001 08:49 AM          
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Rusty, you come off like a fool. Reading through your (7:27) post, all I see is someone who cannot express his thoughts very well, though he does know how to insult others. You may have good points regarding Paul’s epistles, but we cannot find them for the rubbish in which they buried. Nobody cares about your potty mouth. We all see your red face and stomping foot. Yes, you must be so righteously angry. So seek a solution to the problem by putting forth an argument (as x.x. did), not by railing on the pastor whom you ‘like as a person’.
To follow my own advice:
I think submission is vital to a marriage, from all parties. If a man will not submit to a rebuke for the actions/sin of his family, but instead responds with violence, then where lies the problem? With the rebuker? Or with the man who has placed himself as lord over his wife, his church, his ‘god’?
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Rusty
Member   posted 02-07-2001 09:21 AM             
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Mikey,
I sincerely appologize for my terse words but I am not enjoying the fact that my wife and I are loosing sleep over this argument to the point of making us sick.
What I meant by hitting someone for telling me to muzzle my wife was, that she has just as much right to speak up in disagreement to what Pastor Mark or anyone in the church was saying that was not Biblically sound.
If she was screaming obsenities at the Pastor for no apparent reason and I sat there and did nothing, then I can understand someone rebuking me.
-Rusty

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mikey
Member   posted 02-07-2001 09:37 AM          
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...apology accepted, Rusty. It is good to see you and your wife struggling to understand this issue, rather than ignoring it.
A question for you, and all married folks:
what are some practical examples of keeping order in your marriage/home? Particularly when it comes to biblical instruction and theological questions.
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Rusty
Member   posted 02-07-2001 09:55 AM             
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Ironically enough, if my wife has a question about what Mark has taught, she asks me first. If it is a misunderstanding on her part I clear it up but if it is a solid disagreement with what he has taught I ask him personally. Likewise, if I have a question about what Mark says, I will ask her first and if she can help clarify fine. If not I will personally ask Mark.
Luckily, we have not come to point in which we disagree with each other (my wife and I). We do disagree on large subjects- such as the death penalty. But we have not come across any Biblical ones, without convincing one or the other of our arguments.

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taggert
Junior Member   posted 02-07-2001 12:01 PM          
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yo man u R so right! like we dont wanna go back to that 50s style headship crap. we definitely dont wanna go back to that pre-civil war amish crud. why go backward? we goin forwurd, baby.
and we sure as hell don‘t wanna go all the way back to that stupid Adam-Eve “role“ setup. that was just some lousy 4-shadowing of the Christ & church model predestynned by God, a templait for our eternal relashionship with him. it wasn‘t important for real life or nothin.
get a grip, driskoll, and the rest of U people who agree with em. we‘ve improved God‘s model, so why go back?
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Rusty
Member   posted 02-07-2001 12:22 PM             
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Ho Ho He He Ha Ha
You are so clever Taggert.
Just as men are inherently smarter then women, you, my friend are smarter than me!
I could never learn anything from a woman, unless it was how to cook and clean.
Your right! Let's bring back slavery while were at it!
Yes, that's right I am disputing God's authority over me. Wow, you caught me my name is Phil Donahue. You are really clever!

(Galatians 3) 27 As many of you as were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and female; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus.

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the Hulk
Junior Member   posted 02-07-2001 12:49 PM          
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grrrrrrr... stupid men...
How mAny time wussy men say sAme little whine over and over? Hulk tired of peoPle saying men and women same, and heAdship bad. Hulk know Men and women different... Hulk nOt say the obvious waYs how, siNce that subject make Hulk face red.
Green and rEd bad combo-- HuLk look like muskular Christmas tree. Hey--YOU NO LAUGH AT HULK!
Men and women am different bye-o... bye-o-logik... logik-all... urg. Banner word. You know what Hulk means. So wHy people think they is same exact in mental way, or spiritual way? Divide thOse from bio... whatever... and you get wHat Banner calls "Nos-tick" or Greek thinking. Bible not talk about these separate. Talk about whole person. Talk about man/woman not same. Talk aBout roles.
Even "dumb" Hulk see scripture. God say man & woman should be mirror. Reflect God and man. Reflect Christ aNd church. Big responsibility to be model. Hulk know Marriage NOT about you. NOT about skill or power (like Hulk's power!). Marriage abOut both submitting to model. Model set up by God at beginning.
Man SUBMITS to appointed role of headship-- Hulk understands this-- Banner will tell you headship NOT fun.
(Wait, Banner neVer told Hulk this... how does Hulk know what Banner is thinking?Hmmm...)
Banner's wife Betty subMits to her role also. Submission to hUsband NOT always bed of roses. Tough. Take STRONG woman. (Hulk LIKES strong women...)
Look at BiBle. Israel submit to God. Moses, David, everybody. They not co-equal. When they reverse, everything fall down (like HULK make things fall down!). Like when Adam sat on butt watching TV and let Eve go off, she eAt bad fruit. Then he submit to her food offering and HE maKe man fall. PUNY ADAM! Biggest of all, Church submit to Christ. Him the "Supergroom"... only Jesus not wear spandex like that nerd with "S" on his chest (Hulk not like S-man. Hulk SMASH him). Church not tell Jesus how to save the day. Church "listen quietly to his instruCtion with all submiSsion".
Hulk know Christ and ChuRch not equal either. All Scripture, in story and principal-- show Hulk how this relationship work. Then God say "Hulk, get good woMan and model this in relationship. This why I invent marriage, Hulk. For you to be mirror. Likeness and image..." and Hulk say YES!
But noW people want to SMASH God-mirror, much like Hulk often SMASHES mirrors! (Sometimes Hulk see Banner in mirror and MUST smash it. Hmmm...) People try to find loOPhole, little veRse or Greek word to make model "modern" or "different"... they trying to follow a LETTER, not spirit of whole Gospel. And puny mEn call Hulk small-minded!
But this one mirror Hulk knOw even HULK not supPosed to break. Even if seems "rashional" (urg... Banner word). Hulk ask which goes first--scripture or "rashionalism"?
BanNer take vow. Him vOw to be like Christ unto Church. That am role. That mean headship. Him not DO that-- him be "puny" Christ or "wussy" Christ or "abusive" Christ-- and Hulk will SMASH him. That is Hulk's voW.
Husband not in heAdship is like ADAM. Husband in proper headship is like CHRIST. And that's all Hulk has to sAy about that.
Calming down now. Sleepy.......
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Rusty
Member   posted 02-07-2001 01:21 PM             
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Hulk,
Thank you for your input.. I think? Your insight was about as illuminating as a black-jack is to the back of the head.
I would like to refer you to the gender like midrash: difference thread.
http://www.marshill.fm/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000101.html
I think Naileoa said it best when he said.

quote:
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"so i do not think God-intended gender looks like either traditional fundamentalist roles and rules, nor does it look merely like liberated feminist "rights".
both attempts to standardize gender only serve to take it hostage."
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taggert
Junior Member   posted 02-07-2001 01:21 PM          
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sweet! dude, u R so cool. chicks don‘t gotta submit no more. gotcha.
yo, and rise up all u slaves, tell your masters that your a free man, revolt and kill em and kick em in the pants cause we‘re ONE in Christ! “There is no slave“... oops, uh... never mind those stupid verses where old Pauly tells slaves to B subject to their masters. Obviusly the dude wasn‘t divinely inspired and contradicts himself, so we can pick n‘ choose, momma.
Hell, there‘s no male or female-- sweet! We don‘t gotta model ourselves after nothin now! WOW, homosexuality is kosher too! THanks for the education. I‘ll try out a guy this weekend. God‘s ordained “roles“ are
over thanks to the “get out of Galations 3 card“... HEY!! We‘re all ONE in Christ... sounds like a kickin‘ orgy to me! Wakka-Chicka-bowm-bowmp!
Man, Galatians totally rocks when taken it outa context. I gotta start doin that more often.
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Rusty
Member   posted 02-07-2001 01:43 PM             
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I would have gotten away with it if it wasn't for those meddling Taggarts!
Wow, clever once again! Way to put words in my mouth! Yeah! I am all about Sexual Immorality! I am so about killing too.
Let us revisit Galatians for a minute.
10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not observe and obey all the things written in the book of the law." 11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law; for "The one who is righteous will live by faith." 12 But the law does not rest on faith; on the contrary, "Whoever does the works of the law will live by them." 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us--for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"-- 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

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tetsuo
Junior Member   posted 02-07-2001 02:00 PM             
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Whoah there, Rusty.
Since when did a “particular role“ one is “instructed to model“ have anything to do with their intelligence? One should devote the full power of their “intelligence“ to performing the role to the best of their ability,not to dispute the role chosen by a Sovereign God. You seem to equate “dominance“ or “headship“ with intellect in ALL cases, and the two are not
necessarily related. Being “inherently smarter“ or of equal intelligence is irrelevant to the issue.
If God tells my buddy Fritz to work a math problem while tells me to go down to the corner store and buy him a gallon of milk, I don‘t whine that I could work the math problem just as good as Fritz.
Instead, what I should do is devote my speed and efficiency to expedite the milk run ASAP. I should run, get the best price for the milk, make sure it has a good expiration date, and ask God if he wants me to pour him a glass.

I shouldn‘t stand there sniveling that I can do the math problem “better“ than Fritz. Maybe I know Fritz is a faster runner. This is all irrelevant. God knows what he‘s doing and why. Maybe it‘s a challenge. Bottom line? It‘s scripture. Moses wanted to reject a leadership role over Israel, remember?
“B-b-but I‘m not a good speaker, Lord...“
Does the full context of Scripture have authority over you, or are you using it to wield your own “enlightened“ authority? I think someone‘s a bit “rusty“ on their theological study. If you “submit“ to Scripture, you‘ll recognize the essential nature of the husband/wife roles.
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sniff
Member   posted 02-07-2001 02:25 PM          
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Rusty:
What I am hearing from you, and others (sometimes myself), is a "Not that!" What I mean is this:
So you disagree with Mark's statements, what in them you disagree with remains a little unclear because you present no ideas as to what it should look like. I asked Naileoa this same question and am awaiting an answer. What is it that YOU propose a Christian marriage should look like? Answer this question OVER AND AGAINST what you understand Mark explaining it should look like AND back it up biblically. (i.e., use fitting examples and references from the Bible if you do think that there are any to be used.) No more bashing or yelling. Trade argument for argument. Bashing is a lot more appropriate for the Ring of Fire.
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Rusty
Member   posted 02-07-2001 02:30 PM             
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Tetsuo,
Perhaps I am getting carried away my dispute is with the interpretation of 1 Corinthians 11 and 14. I have obviously become something I was rallying against- a reactionary. Some of you are saying it is God's word when it was actually local custom.
So all these specific definitions of what a man and woman's roles are not God's Laws.
i.e Women cannot speak, teach, be unveiled in church
They are Paul's wish list based on local customs.

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Rusty
Member   posted 02-07-2001 02:50 PM             
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I actually illustrated what marriage was like using somewhat humourous metaphor, the present U.S. Senate.
Marriage is not a dictatorship (please feel free to check out my rant What's Rusty's Problem Anyway? and Mark's reply.) Marriage is like the present U.S. Senate were there is a 50/50 tie. Men are like the Republicans (almost always right but always getting bad press) and women are like the Democrats (wel-meaning but you know.) In order for anything to get done there should and has to be compromise. If there is a 50/50 tie the Republicans can whip out DICK Cheney to brake the tie and men can too. But if you use DICK too much the Democrats can filibuster everything and nothing is accomplished.
Obviously you should not compromise God's Law.
3 But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the husband is the head of his wife, and God is the head of Christ.

It is hard not to bash and over react when you have the likes of Taggart and Hulk around.


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olderthannoah
Member   posted 02-07-2001 02:56 PM             
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Rusty...back to your response. So if I'm following what you said then I can say that since it was Paul's desire for men to lift up holy hands in prayer, then I don't have to listen to him and can start tradin' in church...it must have been a particular problem for the Ephesian church. Must be the same for women dressing modestly. I can't wait to tell my wife so she can wear her XFL cheerleader outfit to church!
Seriously, you have to be careful how you sort out what Paul's thoughts are from what he desires as a divinely-appointed apostle. Why didn't he say here as he does in 1 Corinthians "I and not the Lord"?
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sniff
Member   posted 02-07-2001 03:14 PM          
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I'd forgotten about that thread, sorry. Interesting and very creative illustration. Any Biblical refs?
There are a lot of holes in your illustration, however. For one thing, it doesn't illustrate headship, it illustrates (poorly) what you should do when she wants quiche and you want steak.
Secondly, though it begins to illustrate the "against" portion that Naileoa stabbed at, it does nothing for demonstrating the "with" that is implied first and foremost in marriage. The Senate is, after all, a fractured, selfish, political body of disparate parts. Not at all what I want my marriage (or my relationship with Christ) to look like. So while it was a clever stab, we both know that it is a very poor illustration. So try again. And, like I told Naileoa, I'm not looking for anecdotes about how your marriage actually works, I want to know what the IDEAL looks like - in YOUR mind. And, again, back it up scripturally - or we might as well throw the whole idea of Christian marriage out the window.
I'm kinda partial to Hulk. Though, for consistency, perhaps his name should be "Mungo". Mungo and Taggert...reminds me of a movie.
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tetsuo
Junior Member   posted 02-07-2001 03:21 PM             
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Perhaps I misunderstand, my friend, but it seems your dispute relates to a VAST amount of Biblical material dealing with headship roles. You can't confine the issue to Corinthians. Even 1 Timothy seems clear on this issue, by relating the worship problem Paul is dealing with directly (i.e.women teaching) directly back to the abuse of roles in Genesis. Certainly minor elements like "plaited hair" or head coverings (i.e. things that denoted status, showmanship, etc.) change with culture, but the general
principles of Christ/church relation including teaching, headship and submission (which others have eloquated less than eloquently a few posts above me-- thanks Hulk ) seem clear in every context, not simply a cultural issue for the Corinthian church. When something in the Bible is "only cultural" for a church in Corinth... and Ephesus... and numerous other locations, the eradication of the headship/submission principle based on a "cultural" write-off seems highly dubious.
Your political metaphor is beautiful and keenly illustrates your view. Can you point out any metaphor from scripture (Old Testament, New Testament, principles or stories) that similarly illustrate this type of relationship? I fear that's where your view falls short and reveals a modernistic foundation, more than scriptural. Despite his grammar, the Hulk has a point about God's linked symbology, and it is curious that this co-leading work is not evident in any Christ/church relationship.
You need to be VERY careful when rendering something to be "cultural". Otherwise you wind up throwing out the homosexuality with the shellfish.
[This message has been edited by tetsuo (edited 02-07-2001).]
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Rusty
Member   posted 02-07-2001 03:27 PM             
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Fine that's the way you want it let's go through his laundry list, shall we?
New (Actually Old) Rules for Marshill Worship According to 1 Timothy 8-15
1) Men shall raise their hands into the air when praying. Those who do not will have them broken off.
2) Women shall wear traditional Muslam clothing since they are the only ones with truly submissive women. No more earings, necklaces and all those nose-rings have got to go.
3) Women shall not to speak/sing/mumble in church for it might be misinterpreted as teaching. That means kicking the women out of the Bands and Jennifer can no longer make announcements.
4)Women without a husband and children shall not be allowed in to the sanctuary because they have not been redeemed by childbirth.
Let's jump over to 1 Corinthians 11:4 for a couple more rules
5) A man shall not pray or prophesies with anything on his head. So Mark cannot wear his nit cap if he has a cold and all those Faggot-Hippy-metal types will have to shave their heads because they look like women. Men should look like Mr. Clean.
6) Once again women shall wear a veil to church and they better not speak unless they are at home and only to their husbands. So to be safe install a sound-proof room in your home so that, God Forbid, someone else shall not hear a woman speak.
All those who disagree will be taken to the re-education camps.
Zieg Hiel!
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Rusty
Member   posted 02-07-2001 03:46 PM             
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I guess I am really not arguing against headship I am arguing against certain so called definitions of what the defined roles are.
I ask my wife about buying things and she asks me. I ask her about questions about religion and she does the same of me. I clean the dishes, the laundry, sometimes cook and sometimes vacuum. Sometimes I initiate love-making and sometime she does. She asked me to move and then we talked about where. When she gets sick I take care of her and when I get sick she takes care of me. When it is the holiday's we try to alternate amongst parents. She looks out for my best interest and I look out for hers. Rarely is a decision made unilaterally. Obviously, I can decide to take out the trash without discussion.
If she wants to speak up in church, I will not stop her because I trust her more than I trust any other person on this planet. I value her opinion more than any others besides God's. And when you say God is saying something, I feel well within my right as a Christian to read it and see if it says the same thing to me. My salvation depends on it and I will not follow blindly any man.
God is the head of Christ but they are one.
Husband is the head of Wife but they are one as well.
Without the other they do not exist.
Deborah was a Judge: there is your example of a women in a leadership role.
Furthermore Jael was the one who drove the tent peg into the enemies head: there is your example of women in combat.
Edited for poor grammar.

[This message has been edited by Rusty (edited 02-07-2001).]
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mikey
Member   posted 02-07-2001 03:58 PM          
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Husband is the head of wife, yet they are one...
... so what does this look like? How is this statement manifest in your life?
(This is indirectly for Rusty, but anyone else is free to respond.)
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Rusty
Member   posted 02-07-2001 04:10 PM             
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Mikey,
Ironically my wife found this church on the Internet. Before that we were both searching for a church that both of us liked. If one of us did not like a church the other one would eventually agree because we both share the same theological views. Sometimes it is not always obvious to one person or the other that a church is conflicting with our beliefs. That has happened both ways.
When we have had heated arguments it is because one of us is being selfish not because there is a deep theological divide.
We worked through our beliefs before we got married.
[This message has been edited by Rusty (edited 02-07-2001).]
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Nouvelle-Orlèans
Junior Member   posted 02-08-2001 12:40 PM             
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Rusty here is what you wanted. A copy of our conversation online about this topic for others to view:
NO says:
Well I finished reading and it seems you all got worked up.
NO says:
There is one tragic flaw to your beliefs in how God's revelation works.
Rusty says:
Yes, do you think Sarah would marry a passionless man?
Rusty says:
Shoot
NO says:
No, way!!! José.
Rusty says:
Go ahead I mean
Rusty says:
You say that Paul's list is just based on local custom and that is right, however...
Rusty says:
ok
NO says:
God works through men, through the Holy Spirit in them.
NO says:
ok
NO says:
Where does revelation start and end... that is the question.
Rusty says:
and is there an answer?
NO says:
It is about context and you were 90% right about the whole thing.
Rusty says:
My point is the women speaking
NO says:
But you cannot discount revelation because it applies to a specific community in a specific place.
Rusty says:
ok
NO says:
Well in Paul's community there must have been problems. We must take that into account and wrestle with this question like Theologians.
NO says:
An answer to your previous question about where Revelation begins and ends, another question...
Rusty says:
Ok
Rusty says:
fair enough
Rusty says:
but what about the subject of women speaking?
Rusty says:
Teaching
NO says:
What I mean is that the Bible will give us answers insomuch as we let it. We must not split hairs, because that is in fact what Fundamentalists do.
Rusty says:
Fighting fire with fire
Rusty says:
Whether women speak or not...this is the question. As for the modern church it would prove that as a people of God we have moved to the point to letting women speak. I agree that women should speak...
Rusty says:
ok
NO says:
so do most churches... not to say that democracy is strictly operative in Church...
Rusty says:
Nun's Teach
Rusty says:
understood
Rusty says:
Nuns taught my CCD class
NO says:
That is your other tragic theological flaw. They have a point, nun's do teach but there is a role and a place for everyone.
Rusty says:
so I would hope you are on board with that
Rusty says:
Fine
Rusty says:
who defines the role?
Rusty says:
is it not more of a calling?
NO says:
I do not mean that anyone should be beat into submission. No rather, we must restle with roles, and try to interpret what God wants. YES!!! A CALLING you got it.
Rusty says:
High fives all around
Rusty says:
I understand that my logic is flawed
NO says:
I calling comes from God and the Church (bc God is operative in the Church's members the Holy Spirit.)
NO says:
Democracy has weaknesses. It is not truly always compelled by the Spirit just as other forms of Gov't.
NO says:
I.E. Democracy operates on the premise that all members are educated!!! There are many idiots in this great US of A that we live in.
NO says:
First tragic flaw of our country.
Rusty says:
There are plenty of idiots in are church
NO says:
Too often we vote when we do not fully understand the issues.
NO says:
Yes but in Church Heirarchy is not necessarily a bad thing.
Rusty says:
Being a republican I can understand that
NO says:
Or in any government for that matter.
Rusty says:
I realize that
NO says:
For Church and Government are subject to both human and divie principles.
Rusty says:
I was using their argument against them
Rusty says:
Although I am not a practicing Catholic
NO says:
It seems as though we have to look at heirarchy and question where does authority come from and who uses it legitimately.
Rusty says:
I respect and believe much of it
NO says:
Well maybe you practice more than many practicing Catholics then, have you thought of that?
Rusty says:
I try not to judge
Rusty says:
Our pastor was raised Catholic
NO says:
Yes, but we should judge in the context of truth. God gave us minds for that.
Rusty says:
and usually brings a lot of that flavor to the church
NO says:
Yes and your pastor understands much of Catholic Belief, I am sure.
Rusty says:
yes
Rusty says:
I am sure you get in a battle royal with him
NO says:
But ask yourself, is it the Church of Jesus Christ or is it the Church of WWII?
Rusty says:
That has been discussed
NO says:
Battles, and trenchs abound in a Church separate from the fullness...
NO says:
Not to say the Catholic Church is perfect and battleless however, there is a broadness of theological opinion which is contained in many people, the actions of the Holy Spirit manifest, rather in a Pastor who has decided to break from Tradition.
NO says:
Forgive my commercial for the Cath Church but Tradition is what formed the Bible.
NO says:
It was not written down until 30 to 80 years after Jesus' death snd resurrection.
Rusty says:
It seems to me that he struggles with what is inside (Catholic Upbringing) and the Fundies that he hangs out with
Rusty says: http://www.marshill.fm/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000034.html
NO says:
You cannot have scripture with out the constant tradition of the Church and a living tradition is one that Looks back and forward. Not stuck in the past only like the Amish. (Besides their past is pretty modern actually 1800's style dress.)
Rusty says:
This is a thread started by a Catholic on that subject
Rusty says:
Retoric
Rusty says:
Reactionary Retoric
NO says:
I am looking at it now.
Rusty says:
When I poke fun or insult the Catholics, Amish, Presbyterians, Plantation owners it is Reactionary Retoric
NO says:
What I mean is that the Amish are stuck in the 1800's because their Tradition (they would not call it that) is dead. It is irrelevant to the PostModern World.
Rusty says:
ah
Rusty says:
If you ever feel called to post on the Marshill site do not use the word PostModern
NO says:
Why not?
Rusty says:
everything you say after that will fall on deaf ears
Rusty says:
Just kidding
NO says:
Oh, OK!!
Rusty says:
But they will make fun of you
Rusty says:
Not that you are afraid of that
NO says:
Well that post about the Bible and the Sola Scripura thing is pretty on target. I do not see any major flaws except that person passing himself off as the pope.
NO says:
No I've been made fun of a lot.
NO says:
People forget that the Bible cannot stand on its own.
Rusty says:
Wait that was not the Pope!?!?!
NO says:
For example he controversy about Huck Finn,and Tom Sawyer.
NO says:
(What I mean is there is a certain arrogance to him in that he is using that name to lend a certain authority, whatever to it.)
Rusty says:
I am kidding
NO says:
the Controversy about Huck Finn, is should we allow our kids to read this in school when it says nigger in there.
Rusty says:
I thought it was tongue in cheek
NO says:
Context, context, context.
Rusty says:
right
Rusty says:
Never say niggarly in DC though
NO says:
Who has the authority to interprete the Bible and who has the authority or the historical knowledge to interpet the context?
Yett says:
yes??
NO says:
NOOO WAYYY or in NEW ORLEANS for that matter or you will have a big easy punch in the face.
Rusty says:
It means Cheap
NO says:
Well the Apostles and those who hold the tradition. What gets me is that some fundamentalists think that the King James edition of the Bible dropped into their hands out of heaven.
Rusty says:
One of the Mayors officials said that and lost his job
Rusty says:
KJ is a horrible translation
NO says:
I didn't know that.
NO says:
Yes but who has the authority to say that the translation is correct in one's native lang?
Rusty says:
Jehovah=Yahweh
Rusty says:
small example
NO says:
It all comes back down to that question. Where do we believe that the Holy Spirit is Operative in its fullness?
says:
Jerome did not know where the vowels went
NO says:
Jehovah is a nonsense word upon which some people's whole faiths are based upon.
Rusty says:
Hey I am on board with you
Rusty says:
j=y and v=w in German
NO says:
No, but with more knowledge comes the question. What is the constant tradition of the Church?
Rusty says:
the vowels are from adoni
NO says:
You are amazing me as to your knowledge. I only hope that more people would take their faith so seriously.
Rusty says:
I am sure you would argue it left with Luther
Rusty says:
I have struggled with my beliefs for a very long time
Rusty says:
looking for answers
NO says:
No, with Luther in many ways it began. For Luther did not want to break with Church he rather would have liked to reform it.
NO says:
However, he fell into the danger zone of Church of ME.
Rusty says:
Church vs. ME??
NO says:
We all fall into that zone when we dare to believe that we have all the knowledge and understanding.
Rusty says:
right
NO says:
That is why we need to be linked to something larger and challenging.
NO says:
So here is the real blow.
NO says:
Do I look for a church that suits my own theological opinions or whims, or do I submit to a church with whom I have problems but in which I see the movement of the Holy Spirit?
Rusty says:
Right
NO says:
One is from the authority from on High. One is from the authority: Church of ME.
NO says:
Equity and Equality are not the same.
NO says:
Each person has his or her role.
NO says:
All form the body of Christ.
Rusty says:
understood
NO says:
Many parts, many gifts.
NO says:
Women submit to your husbands, but...
NO says:
MEN LOVE YOUR WIVES LIKE YOUR OWN BODIES.
NO says:
Men don't have it all that easy.
NO says:
Nor do women.
Rusty says:
I agree with the generalities
Rusty says:
I get bent on the specifics
NO says:
Women should not submit to an unjust authority. Men should not be bastards to their wives.
Rusty says:
agreed
NO says:
Men should be men and women women.
Rusty says:
agreed
Rusty says:
AMEN BROTHER!!
NO says:
That is really what Paul wanted to say. He addressed his own problems. We should use his principles in as much as they can be applied today.
NO says:
Otherwise we get into Dangerous territory.
Yett says:
Right
NO says:
FUNDAMENTALISM = Intellectual suicide.
Rusty says:
NO
Rusty says:
can I ask you a favor?
NO says:
I can be Catholic and believe in God's creation without disbelieving the Theory of Evolution.
NO says:
Yes, what's the favor?
Rusty says:
ditto
Rusty says:
Would you please post what you have said to me on the BB
Rusty says:
When I talk there is more heat then light
NO says:
Sure, here it is.


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Butterfly
Junior Member   posted 02-08-2001 07:21 PM          
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So, what is to be done with I Cor and I Tim? What's the deal? What is taken to be cultural, and what is still to be practiced?
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Pastor Mark
Administrator   posted 02-08-2001 07:48 PM          
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“Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain, wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. “ – Ephesians 5:25-27
Headship and love.
Husbands who do not exercise their headship over their wives do not love them. Any man who does not take responsibility for the health and growth of his wife in Christ may have very warm feelings in his heart that he misunderstands as love, but he must recognize that without headship he is in fact practicing hatred toward his wife regardless of how he feels. Husbands who attempt to exercise headship over their wives but do so without love demonstrated in covenant affection are also not exercising Christian headship, no matter how much control and respect they have taken from their wives.
A truthful man will tell you that loving a woman like Christ loves him is difficult. It is easy to have the weak love of our age which loves those who love us first, or love those who love us back, or love those who give us what we want. However, to love a wife like Jesus loves her is not for the faint of heart or soft of mind.
Paul has in mind the same end that every Christian man seeks, a wife who stands before him in radiant holiness free of sin and rebellion against God. However, his route of soft hearts and firm resolve is so tremendously weighty that lesser men in every age have sought to shortcut by either loving without headship (the epidemic of soft hearts and soft resolve), or ruling without love (the epidemic of hard hearts and firm resolve). Either attempt is one of manipulation and not headship. The first tries to manipulate with big teary eyes and the cry that they have been hurt. The second tries to manipulate with a stern look, raised voice and fearful intimidation.
The first assumes that she is a good person and if I love her enough and shower enough grace and patience she will change. The problem with this is that your wife, like you, is not a good person and will therefore crucify you every chance she gets just like Jesus bride did.
The second assumes that she is wicked and ruling her with an iron fist and harsh tone will push her into submission and change. The problem with this is that your wife, like you, does not have the power to change solely by the resolve of her will but needs loving instruction and grace to transform her.
And so Paul tells husbands to love and lead like Jesus Christ. And he begins by stating that you must give yourself up for her. No you will not always get your way, have your needs met, and live the perfect life you dreamed of where your wife worshipped you instead of Christ and bowed down to your every whim with a smile on her face. Instead, you must prepare to die to yourself every moment of every day. And you must prepare that you will not only crucify yourself, but that your bride (like Jesus’) will help drive the stakes in deep as she mocks you.
But, you must remember that your dying in itself does not make you like Jesus. Jesus died for the purpose of changing His bride and making her holy. This is your objective. You must be willing to die for the purpose of causing your wife to be holy by showing her the gospel of Christ in practical ways as you drive your car, eat your dinner, mow your yard, and pay your bills.
Paul says to do this you will need to wash your wife in Scripture. This should not give you permission to turn your home into a seminary complete with lectures and exams on the family overhead. No, Scripture should be a part of the air you breathe as you live together. You should take your bride to Scripture to mediate your disputes, plan your future, overcome your past, forgive your sins, and grow in grace. On a practical note, you may want to draw a warm bath for your bride and read Scripture to her as she soaks. You may want to lay naked in bed with your wife each night and read Scripture and pray over her unclothed. You may want to select a book of the Bible to study with her over tea each evening instead of always surfing channels. You may want to invest in some good reference material and learn together how to submit to the Scriptures in your life so that you can be like Jesus and your wife can be a loved, holy, and cleansed bride.
As this happens, sin will be recognized. To ensure your wife is cleansed of her sin she must be encouraged to earnestly repent and experience immediate forgiveness and reconciliation from you. And, since love keeps no record of wrongs, you must forget those things lying behind you and press forward together. Your wife will best learn this by your modeling as you confess your sins to her and humbly seek her forgiveness when you have offended her and God by your proud sin.
And, you must present your wife to yourself. She is your bride. You must see her as holy and blameless. It does not matter how many men she has slept with. It does not matter if she has been unfaithful. It does not matter the troubles you have had. You must be the first see her as holy and blameless so that she can see herself through your eyes and begin, by God’s grace, to grow into the free, cleansed, beautiful beloved bride that her husband sees.
To accomplish this you must resurrect from your death. You must not lie in your grave as a dead man without hope, without future, and without God. Like Lazarus in his tomb, God is calling you forth to live again and if you hope to ever see your wife as Christ does, or hope to have her see Christ through you, you must resurrect.

[This message has been edited by Pastor Mark (edited 02-08-2001).]
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Pastor Mark
Administrator   posted 02-08-2001 08:02 PM          
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Now a brief word on interpreting Scripture since we are stuck here.
Throughout Scripture you will find that everything is cultural. Meaning, it is written by a person at a place in time to a group of people in a language for a reason. Therefore, to say that some things in the Bible do not apply to us because they are cultural would be to throw out the Bible. For example, the Old Testament is written in Hebrew to Jews. The New Testament was written to Greeks living under Roman rule. Since I am an Irish guy living in America thousands of years later I should chuck the whole Bible?
Some part of Scripture are clearly cross-cultural principles (i.e. don't rape anyone, don't steal anything, don't murder anyone etc.). Now, the application of these principles has to be contextualized in our present day. For example, cheating on your taxes is a form of stealing.
Some parts of Scripture are specific applications of a principle. And, though our culture is different, the principle is the same though the application may be different. For example, the New Testament tells Christians to greet one another with a holy kiss. But, if you kiss my wife in church I will not praise Jesus. Why? Because a direct application of that principle in our day does not carry the same meaning. So, we should not toss the Scripture but instead uncover the principle behind it, such as greeting brothers and sisters warmly in Christ. In our day this may be handshake or shoulder to shoulder hug.
So, in I Corinthians culture does play a role. They asked Paul a specific question about applying biblical principles. There women wore a head covering to show submission to either their father or husband (and from I Corinthians 11 it may have not been a headcovering at all but instead their long hair covering their head). The only women who took them off were loose women and prostitutes. And, Paul does not want church women to be mistaken for whores. Also, gay men (particularly those involved in temple sexuality between men) would grow their hair long and appear very feminine.
These are specific applications that are not universal. For example, God demanded that Samson have long hair. But, the principle is that a Christian man should not be mistaken for a gay man or woman, and that a Christian woman should not appear as a loose woman. So, for a man he should probably not dress in drag in our culture. And a woman should not take her wedding ring off when in bars, or dress in highly revealing clothes that leave little to the imagination.
Principles are universal and binding. Methods are cultural applications of those principles and should vary in time and place because a wooden application of a method means different things in different times and places.
Lastly, if folks are wrestling over this then that is good. As men you will need to determine your convictions for your home biblically and how God's principles apply to you and your bride.
Lastly, I'm not desiring to really be the topic of this thread. Men can feel free to engage my points and respond with Scripture and I will not take them personally unless they are directed personally. And, I do not demand that everyone agree with me. I am calling things as I see them to begin a dialogue and encourage others to come to their own convictions and learn to defend them thoughtfully.
[This message has been edited by Pastor Mark (edited 02-08-2001).]
 Author  Topic:   Headship 
Rusty
Member   posted 02-09-2001 08:34 AM             
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I will admit some of what I said was more reactionary then representative of my actual beliefs and I apologize if I have insulted anyone. So let me make clear what I do believe.
I believe in headship as presented by God through Paul God/Christ/Husband/Wives
I do not find women pastors/preachers/priests particularly enlightening.
I generally do not find women comedians funny.
I have listened to a women when the have had something important to say and I have laughed at female comedians. I wanted a wife who I could intelligently converse with about scripture, amongst other things. That way I am running to keep ahead as opposed to crawling to drag her along. That way we can build each other up as opposed to tearing each other down.
We do not live in an age of uneducated child brides where women are considered to be worth not much more then chattel (wife=property). My wife is well educated and has explored deeply her faith in Christ. My wife and I were not going to get married if we did not see eye to eye theologically. So thankfully we are not fighting about kittens, puppies, key rings, and churches.
I implore you single men to explore your prospective wife's beliefs deeply as well as your own. Just because a woman is Good Christian on the surface does not mean she will make a good wife for you. Otherwise, you could marry the first pretty face you see because all Christian women are interchangeable (hence the justification for adultery in Last Temptation of Christ.) Doing so you will be fighting about kittens, puppies, key rings and churches with your wife instead of growing in your faith with Christ. (No, I do not have the "perfect marriage." Yes, we can get in some pretty good fights.)
Pastor Mark, I realize you do not wish this thread to be about you but you have significant influence with what you say.
First, you are in the position of authority --rightly so, I might add-- and as good Christians we are to honor the authority that has been bestowed upon you by God.
Second, because many of the men at Marshill did not have good, strong fathers/older brothers, they have adopted you as their new father/older brother so what you say is law in their eyes. They will not examine what you say and question you if something does not jive with their beliefs. Instead, they will defend to the death what you have said no matter what. You yourself said that you have trouble watching What About Bob? because Bill Murry reminds you of some of the people at church.
So being in that position of power you should try to be very conscious of what you say and I will try to do the same.

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zugbot
Member   posted 02-09-2001 08:41 AM          
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"I implore you single men to explore your prospective wife's beliefs deeply as well as your own. Just because a woman is Good Christian on the surface does not mean she will make a good wife for you."

Can I get an Amen-ah!?!


Amen-ah!!


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knowah
Junior Member   posted 02-09-2001 12:18 PM             
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wow, I'm impressed, actual dialogue is taking place, positions are being refined, I haven't read the f-word yet, people are debating rather than attacking a person's character. Yet it's not assumed that one person has the answer and everyone should come to them. This is what I thought midrash was supposed to be about and this is why I opposed the PN thread (it wasn't happening there). Mark, I can now hear what you are saying since you have stopped screaming so loud. Keep it up, I'm being taught and loving it.
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Bryan
Administrator   posted 02-09-2001 12:53 PM             
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knowah-
95% of the folks currently involved in Midrash (including you) would not even be here if this whole thing hadn't been violently kick-started by our mortal beloved, WWII! Nor would the men of MH have ever realized their need to grow up! Nor would this Headship thread even exist! If Mark had started his campaign with this thread rather than "PN," we'd still be stuck back in the days of Midrash receiving a few hits a week, many marriages and relationships would still be in a downward spiral, many of the guys at MH would still be in pathetic shape, and on and on and on. People often need a radical shake-up and I for one am glad Mark had the insight and guts to do so!
I praise God for what has happened here!
And, btw, what the fuck is wrong with the f-word?
:)
-Bryan Dutt


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Rusty
Member   posted 02-09-2001 01:12 PM             
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Mr. Dutt,
You jack-booted retard. Take your Hitler-youth rhetoric over to the Ring of Fire. if you feel it so necessary to be sophomoric. http://www.marshill.fm/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000039-3.html
Speaking of WWII, in the 1930's Germany needed a "Radical shake-up" as well and look what they got.
Who's your savior Mark or Jesus?
And speaking of growing up how about making a go at it?
-Rusty

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Rusty
Member   posted 02-09-2001 01:27 PM             
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P.S. Note to Pastor Mark, Bryan is a classic example of the little psychopaths I was talking about, in my second point, at the top of the page.
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sniff
Member   posted 02-09-2001 01:47 PM          
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Rusty:
You are really something else. Can't you taste the irony and thick references in Dutt's words "mortal beloved"?
And being one of the imbeciles posting in the Ring of Fire, I can't help but read your posts here and think of how much your presence is missed there. For though you usually try to refrain from using foul language you really decimate people. Its like obeying the letter but violating the spirit.
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Bryan
Administrator   posted 02-09-2001 01:54 PM             
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Rusty-
Um...
I was going to stoop to your level of ad homonym attack but decided it wasn't even worth it.
Lighten up bro.
-Bryan
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Rusty
Member   posted 02-09-2001 01:54 PM             
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Either way Bryan's post is unnecessary.
I never claimed that I was spiritually superior. I simply speak to the way I am spoken to. If you do not insult my intelligence or my person I can play nice, otherwise all bets are off.
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Pastor Mark
Administrator   posted 02-09-2001 02:14 PM          
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Today, a simple, practical, and real life example.
On a recent flight I sat next to an attractive and intelligent 18 year-old young woman. She is a senior in high school and was travelling out of state to visit a college. When I asked her why she was interested in that college she said that her high school boyfriend who had graduated a year earlier was going there and she wanted to be near him.
So, she was visiting him and when I asked her where she was staying she said she would be staying in his dorm room in a guys dorm. Curiously, when she answered me she ceased eye contact and it was obvious to me that her conscience was kicking in and she was a bit ashamed.
No, I had not dropped the pastor bomb yet. I have learned to investigate strangers lives fully before telling them I am a pastor, otherwise they never tell you anything. Back to the story...
She and her boyfriend had a strong sexual relationship and she cared for him very much. I asked her what she wanted to study, and she said she had no idea. I asked her why she wanted to go to college, and all she could muster was that she wanted to have a good job so she could take care of herself. I asked her if the guy wanted to marry her, and she said she didn't think so because he still had four years of college left and they would see where things went. I asked her where she planned to live if she came to his college and she said that she'd want to get an apartment with him.
She was a very sweet gal and very open with me so I continued our chat. I asked her about her family. Her parents are still married and her older brother was off at college. She said that her dad felt that since she was now 18 and graduating that she was her own woman and that he had no right to intrude in her life so she was free to live her life as she pleased once she graduated and he would love and support whatever she wanted. She seemed proud of him for this and I, of course, was sickened.
We both then decided to listen to some music for a while and I plugged my headphones into my laptop to enjoy the new Linkin Park (I promise you they will be huge ala Bizkit and Korn). She listened to a variety of chick pop (i.e. Spears, Chrsitina, Lopez etc.) and began to read a magazine.
Glancing over I was a bit dismayed at the articles she was intensely being discipled by. "How to Drive Him Wild in Bed", seemed to be the theme of every article. How to show a little skin. How to keep your man happy. How to manipulate him etc. etc.
She was not a Chrsitian, but she was very typical. I'm sure she thought that her dad was a great guy and that her boyfriend was also. I'm sure she thought they both were giving her freedom to be a woman apart from any loving and protecting headship.
But, the dad put his daughter on a plane to go ruin her young reputation in a guys dorm with some guy who loves to have sex with her but has no interest in a covenant and would be happy to have her move across the country to drive him wild in bed and look after him like a good wife. And, before he's graduated, he'll likely dump her and leave her scarred and a bit jaded because he is now her head, but he's not a Christ-like head.
It was a sad situation sitting next to this young girl. It was obvious she did not understand men or women for that matter and took the common route of finding out the hard way like the vast majority of other young women.
As we got off the plane I asked her if she needed my phone to call him to pick her up since our flight was running late. She said it wasn't necessary because she was going to take a cab to go to his dorm. When I asked why he wasn't picking her up she said that he was busy and didn't want to drive down in traffic to get her. I asked her if she knew where to get a cab and she replied, "yeah, I was here a couple months ago and I took a cab back and forth then too so I've got it all figured out."
She smiled and walked away like a little kid running into traffic.
I bet the guy even considers himself a liberated feminist type thinker. If it were my daughter I'd be preaching his funeral.

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Jason Hickner
Member   posted 02-09-2001 03:13 PM             
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Rusty -
God is doing something. And you, like a lot of guys before you, are watching it happen not with excitement, but with your little fist raised and shaking at the air. And not even because of what you believe, it seems, but just for fun.
"I will admit some of what I said was more reactionary then representative of my actual beliefs"
The above is not a minor statement. It clearly speaks to your motives when posting here.
You ought to be ashamed.
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Rusty
Member   posted 02-09-2001 09:28 PM             
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Jason,
You make me so pissed I want to pound you with my "little fists."
You obviously have not carefully read what I have written!
I have lost sleep over this!
I did not come to Christ yesterday, last week, or even last year. I have been wrestling with my faith a long time.
Faith comes easy when you have an inspiring Pastor like Mark. What happens when he is not there? When you have to stand alone and defend your faith by yourself? It easy to say, "Hurray for Christ!" with this Christian incubator of love and the firm hand of Mark to hold you steady. The true test is when you are on your own and have to think for yourself.
When I said I was being reactionary, I meant that I was getting lost in the passion of the battle. The constant salvos from the opposing view unfortunately pushed to defend extremist beliefs that I do not believe in. The basic issue I was fighting against was the fact that "women should be silent in church, that they cannot teach." My point is that you cannot automatically disregard what a woman has to say simply because she is a woman. When asked how that applies to my life, I gave examples of how things work in my marriage. By the way, are you married?
I was asked about woman in leadership roles in the bible. I stated Deborah the judge, Jael, who drove the tent peg through the enemy’s head, and I just remembered Queen Esther who saved the Jews from total destruction.
I agree with much of what Pastor Mark says and that is why I am here. I can be a good Christian and disagree with what Pastor Mark says.

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Originally posted by Pastor Mark:
Lastly, I'm not desiring to really be the topic of this thread. Men can feel free to engage my points and respond with Scripture and I will not take them personally unless they are directed personally. And, I do not demand that everyone agree with me. I am calling things as I see them to begin a dialogue and encourage others to come to their own convictions and learn to defend them thoughtfully.
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Am I really that threatening to your belief system? If my point of view was so asinine you could laugh it off and ignore it because it was so ludicrous. Is your faith so weak that you are shaken to the core? You need to do some hard praying that the Lord would give you some spiritual strength.
You ought to be ashamed.

[This message has been edited by Rusty (edited 02-09-2001).]
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Jason Hickner
Member   posted 02-10-2001 01:45 AM             
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rusty -
honestly, i do not believe you are sincere. your posts speak to me of your own pride. i believe you argue because you enjoy it. you would tear down what is being built here and offer nothing but your empty words to replace it.
i'm not married. very likely i speak out of turn. i have some idea of what a godly man is, though. my father is one. i've never been taught in a way that echoes his example, that affirms his authority to move my family all over the country as he did, to lead as he did, just because god told him to. god didn't speak to me or my brother or my mother. he spoke to my dad, because he was responsible for us. and dad did what he was told, out of love, despite our protests. i respect him beyond words for that courage.
a real man like my dad is rare in life, but described very well in scripture. you describe something much more familiar. i disregard what you say, not because it is asinine, but because it is the articulate speech of one very proud and very deceived, and so brings with it the danger that someone may listen.
if some young man reading this latches on to what you say, and uses your limp protests as a means to excuse himself from the responsibility of being a man who leads his wife instead of a man who shares a "50/50" headship, their failure is yours also.
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Pastor Mark
Administrator   posted 02-10-2001 11:33 AM          
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You guys should swap emails then swap a couple hours and take the chat offline. I know you both and am certain you'd walk away brothers.
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Bryan
Administrator   posted 02-10-2001 12:41 PM             
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I disagree that the dialogue between Jason and Rusty should be taken offline. Yes, they should swap emails so they can hook up to chat face-to-face, but as long as the discussion does not completely derail I think they should continue to discuss it online as well.
Come on Jason and Rusty; Keep it up, and keep it edifying! And Rusty, try to lighten up a bit--it's merely a discussion. You continue to attack the character of the person you are debating, and that causes you to come across as immature and hot-headed. I, for one, would like to see you continue to engage in this discussion as I think you've some interesting things to say. I think the perspective you bring and the points you raise are valuable contributions.
While easy and comfortable, discussions without opposing viewpoints and counter-arguments aren't too challenging.
That's my 1 cent!
-B

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Jason Hickner
Member   posted 02-10-2001 02:44 PM             
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i'd be up for that.
rusty, you like thai? i know a good place. email me: jhickner1@home.com.
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Squatting Bear
Member   posted 02-10-2001 07:25 PM          
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Rusty,
No, I don't think faith will/does come easy when one has an inspiring pastor like Driscoll. What he has shown me is that there are preachers with integrity who exist, and he has been a God sent blessing; but sometimes we as christians have questions or issues that you just has to work thru over time for resolution. There are some things you just have to find yourself that can't come straight out of a text or from the mouth of a friend. Some answers have to be experienced to be learned, (and no, I'm not talking about some sort of mystical-relativism here).
My heart goes out to you in your fight for truth and understanding here. I respect you for taking the time and energy to work thru what you believe.
Hope I made some sort of sense.
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Rusty
Member   posted 02-11-2001 06:41 PM             
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I would first like to apologize, to you all. I have let my pride get the best of me and if you wanted a prime example of where my wife helps me grow as a Christian it is right there. She called me on it and once again she can be a shining example of Christ in my life. I hope my sin has not completely destroyed the credibility of some of my arguments.
Here is a question for the elders. Obviously, women are not allowed to be elders but the men who are, do they have to be married or in the process of being married and can their wives or any other women attend the meeting of the elders?
And since when man and woman are married they become one, could the woman represent her husband if he was physically unable to attend?


[This message has been edited by Rusty (edited 02-12-2001).]
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Bryan
Administrator   posted 02-12-2001 04:07 PM             
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Apology accepted. Thanks Rusty.
-B
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Pastor Mark
Administrator   posted 02-13-2001 09:48 AM          
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“In the same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who lives his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church – for we are all members of his body.” – Ephesians 5:28-30
Headship and care.
You are a selfish man. How do I know this? I know this because you are a man. Every man is selfish. It is simply part of being a man. Not just a man, but specifically a fallen man. A man who was created for God’s glory but ran off in search of his own.
If you do not agree, let me prove it to you.
Honestly assess your life and you will discover that the majority of your time, energy, money, and thought is directed at yourself. What will I wear? What will I eat? What will I drive? What will I do? What do I think? What do I want? What do I need? Who do I deserve?
You love yourself.
Don’t believe the abundance of liars in our age who tell you that your problem is that you do not love yourself enough. Your problem is exactly the opposite. But, they won’t tell you the truth because they too love themselves and they want you to affirm them and pay them homage and cash so they can better love/worship themselves more fully.
So, it is good for a man to take a husband because it remedies him of his self-deception. The first thing a man thinks about in taking a wife is that he is picking up someone to help him love himself by doing things for him (i.e. cooking, laundry, sex, cleaning, etc.). As soon as he is married, he assumes that his wife is broken because she does not do for him all that he was hoping for. She too becomes disillusioned because she was also self-deceived and thought that she was picking up someone to help her love herself.
And so they sit, to self-absorbed people wondering why the other isn’t taking care of them and growing more bitter and perplexed with every day.
So, to be a husband means that you are to go first. That is what headship means. You show the gospel first.
And Paul instructs you to begin simply. Love your wife the way you love yourself.
Let’s make this practical. Do you like to wear nice clothes? Do you like to eat good food? Do you like to be served? Do you like to drive a dependable car? Do you like to live in a decent home? Do you like to take a nap? Do you like to be comfortable and have joy?
So does your wife. So, begin by taking some of the time, money, energy and thought and direct it away from yourself for a change. And, direct it at your wife so that you can show that you care for her.
Lavish time on her. Lavish money on her. Lavish energy on her. Lavish thought on her.
Some of you may protest that she doesn’t deserve it. Neither do you, but Jesus specialized in grace and so should his men.
As further incentive Paul tells us that if you love her you are also loving yourself. Why? Because if you exercise your headship to show Christ to your wife she will reflect Christ back to you like a mirror and you will both have joy.
But, as the head, you must go first. You cannot wait for your wife to respond if you are not initiating.

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knowah
Junior Member   posted 02-13-2001 03:58 PM             
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Bryan, I came before the whole PN thread was started, but thanks for categorizing me.
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Pastor Mark
Administrator   posted 02-16-2001 12:21 PM          
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“Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers.” – I Peter 3:7
Headship and tenderness.
Masculine men are often very rough with other men. They speak to them frankly and clearly. They may raise their voice or engage in intimidating posture. Fellow masculine men understand this language and live in this world quite comfortably.
However, a woman is not a man.
A woman should be spoken to by her husband with tenderness. Why, because God has made her weaker, or more fragile. She is not broken and needing to be made tougher, she is different and needing to be respected. She is also not less valuable. She simply has a different purpose. In a crude analogy, if a man is a steel thermos then a woman is a crystal goblet. The goblet is certainly not less than the thermos, but was designed for a noble purpose and requires tender use.
Your bride was created by God as your suitable helper. God in His wisdom knew it would be best for you to have a helper unlike you and so He made a woman. And your wife was created to inherit the grace of this life and the life to come with you.
And so you should be considerate of her, gentle and tender.
In plain language, this is the bottom line. You should not raise your voice to intimidate your wife. You should not touch your wife in any way that is threatening, violent, or causes her fear. You should never hit or shove your wife under any circumstances. You should not use your mental, emotional, physical or any other male strength in a way to defeat or crush your bride. You should never threaten her in any way.
If you do, Peter gives to you a solemn promise. God will not hear your prayers. You can pray all you want, and God will not listen. You can beg God for health, wealth, wisdom and victory.
And He will close His ears.
God cares for your bride and has given her to you to serve and serve with in His place. Therefore, do not think that if you are harsh with His daughter that He will be kind with you. He is a good Father who keeps watch over His daughters.

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Pastor Mark
Administrator   posted 02-17-2001 07:15 PM          
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“How beautiful you are, my darling! Oh, how beautiful! – Song of Songs 4:1
Headship and sexual speech.
Every man should know that his wife does not view herself as attractive. It does not matter how beautiful a woman is, she is self-conscious to the degree that she is aware of any potential flaw on her body and has difficulty seeing herself as beautiful. So, as a head, it is the husbands privilege and duty to help renew and reform the self-image of his bride.
You may protest that you once knew a woman who was very self-confident in her own skin. I am telling you that she was not and that all of her flaunting and bold proclamations were her attempt to convince herself of something she did not believe.
In the Song of Songs we see the husband speaking very graphically (though not crudely) to his wife. Men can error either by not speaking about their wife’s body, by speaking of it negatively (i.e. my wife has really put on a few pounds), or by speaking about it to anyone other than her.
Some wives will blush at this, but they will love it nonetheless. So, take my word on it.
Tell your wife about her body from your perspective. Tell her, specifically, what you enjoy about her body and make sure that you are not degrading to her in any way.
You may feel odd. And, your wife may think that you are odd at first, but hang in there. Some men love foreheads. Others feet, or breasts, or hips, or hair, or eyes, or nose, or lips, or legs, or ears etc. etc. As long as it is on your wife it is there by God’s sovereignty to enjoy and appreciate because yes the lordship of Christ extends all the way to the curve on her hips and small of her back.
To do this, you will need to be like Job and make a covenant with your eyes that you will not look at another woman lustfully (Job 31:1).
In Genesis we find that God created for Adam the woman Eve. And, since there were no other women yet created it is safe to assume that Adams’ wife was his sole standard for beauty and Eve had no air brushed Tupper Ware enhanced cover girls to compete with.
Likewise, your bride is beautiful. Her body is perfect. Her body is exactly what God has chosen as your standard for desire. Renewing your mind in this area may be particularly difficult if your head has been filled with images of other men’s wives. One of the problems with pornography and lust is that a man gets attracted to women who are tall and short, white and black, young and old, skinny and curvy, long haired and short haired, tan and pale, busty and not busty, etc. etc. etc. Obviously, any man addicted to viewing such folly will never be satisfied in his wife’s breasts alone (Proverbs 5) and cause his poor wife to meet his impossible standards that she be able to change her looks like he does the pages of Playboy.
As you come to your wife with such respect and desire she should, even if slowly, come to find herself more comfortable in her own skin. She should carry herself with more confidence in your presence, particularly when you are intimate. And, she should welcome you to shower with her, watch her undress, and allow you to explore her body because it is now also your body and she is to give it to you freely (I Corinthians 7:3-5).
As your wife grows in her trust of you and you grow in your desire of her she will likely begin to ask you specific questions about her body. She will ask you how you would like her to wear her hear. She will ask you if you like her scent. She will ask you if she should watch her weight.
And, if you have loved her with wisdom and desire you will be amazed to find that your wife actually becomes more lovely and attractive because she is comfortable in her skin and you have spoken to her with enough loving desire to cause the spring of her beauty.

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Pastor Mark
Administrator   posted 02-28-2001 08:45 PM          
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"When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me." - I Corinthians 13:11
If you are male, you should undergo a dramatic change in your life. This change is your transition from being a boy to being a man. This change is evidenced by a reformation in how you speak, how you think, and how you reason. As a result of these changes you will see the sum total of your life reformed and the childish ways of your past will be set aside and replaced with mature manly wisdom.
Therefore, if you persist in your childish ways you can logically assume that you are still a boy no matter how old you are. If you cannot balance your checkbook, if you live with your parents, if you continue to expect others in your life and church to take care of your needs, if you waste your money on stereos and various other toys, if you waste your time mastering video games, if you are seeking a girlfriend and not a wife, if you drink on the weekends and brag about it during the week, if you have a habit of doing foolish and juvenile things then you can safely assume that your thinking, reasoning, and speaking are childish.
Consequently, you must stop talking about yourself, your life, your world, your interests, your needs, and your fears as though you were a child babbling on without any clue as to what they should do. You must stop thinking like you did when you were in the fifth grade and renew your mind with wisdom, discipline, and mature thinking about your future and your God. You must cease your backwards grade school illogic and defending your delinquency like a small child pitching a fit, blaming someone else, or making an untenable excuse for their folly.
In sum, every man should take an inventory of his life with sober judgement. Am I still a child? Do I speak like a child? Do I think like a child? Do I reason like a child? Do I act like a child?
And here's a clue. If your closest friends are mere boys you can safely assume that you too are a childish boy because no true men like to befriend boys unless they are trying to aid them in becoming potty trained so they stop messing themselves.
And, if a boyman despises the honest conclusions he comes to he should repent of his childish ways and put those childish ways behind him and remember that simply because he grows older does not in any way ensure that he will grow wiser or more mature. Conversely, he will simply look all the more childish, like a grown man with his thumb in his mouth and diapers on his bum sitting in a high chair with his dinner smeared around his face that bears a silly grin.
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TheOgre
Member   posted 03-01-2001 11:53 AM             
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you forgot this one - "If you spend hours infront of the computer reading midrash posts when you should be studying/working."
Guess I'll go do my calc. now.
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Pastor Mark
Administrator   posted 03-12-2001 04:57 PM          
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"Listen, my sons, to a father's instruction; pay attention and gain understanding. I give you sound learning, so do not forsake my teaching. When I was a boy in my father's house, still tender, and an only child of my mother, he taught me and said, 'Lay hold of my words with all your heart; keep my commands and you will live." - Proverbs 4:1-4
Headship and boys.
Most foolish men began as foolish boys. And boys, by nature, are foolish. So, boys need wisdom to correct their folly. And, this wisdom is supposed to come from their father who lives and speaks wisdom for his sons. The book of Proverbs opens with the repeated insights of a father to his son(s) in such practical areas as fearing God, choosing friends, getting married, having sex, avoiding sluts, spending and saving money, discipline, taming the tongue, working hard, physical health, and other issues related to biblical wisdom. And, the father initiates these discussions with his son(s), and does so at an early age before the problems arise.
How ideal would it be if fathers actually took responsiblity for the development of their boys and actively prepared them to one day leave home and dispense practical masculine wisdom to their sons and their sons sons? If you wonder what the world would look like if fathers were fools who neglected to be wise and dispense wisdom to their sons all you need to do is open the door to your home and gaze upon the fools parade we call a nation. In the worst case scenario you won't even need to open the door of your home because the folly is parading around your own home and you are sitting on your recliner throne ruling over your unruly kingdom of folly.
If a young man has a wise father he should thank God and listen to his dad. If a young man does not have a wise father he should seek God, study Scripture (especially Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, I & II Timothy and Titus), pray James 1:5-8, and seek out an older man who has practical godly wisdom to learn from and confide in. If you are unsure what a wise man looks like the qualifications for an elder are a helpful guide (I Timothy 3:1-7, Titus 1:6-9).
And your ambition should be to then one day impart wisdom to your sons and their sons to ensure that the cycle of folly is broken and that future generations of boys don't have to drink out of the toilets of porno, fornication, Loveline, the collective "wisdom" of peers and the like in an effort to quench a parched soul.
If you are a man you are the head of other men who are not yet even born. So, you should begin today preparing to guide and instruct them in wisdom because God will hold you responsible for your folly and theirs.
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Rusty
Member   posted 03-14-2001 09:18 AM             
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important
Junior Member   posted 03-19-2001 08:03 AM          
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Pastor Mark
Administrator   posted 03-31-2001 02:42 PM          
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"For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife and they will become one flesh." Genesis 2:24, Matthew 19:5, Ephesians 5:31
Headship and leaving.
Moses, Jesus, and Paul sing the same song for young men wanting to take a bride.
First, you must leave your parents. This means that if your mother still cooks your breakfast and washes your underwear, and all the bills that come to your home are in your fathers name you are a boy and not ready to be married. You should have your own residence. You should have your own church. You should have your own theology. You should have your own car. You should have your own bank account, complete with a savings. You should have your own career. You should have your own ministry to serve in. You should have your own life and make your own decisions and be responsible for yourself before you ever dream of being responsible for a woman and children. After all, if you cannot manage your own meager life how do you expect to manage an entire family? If you do not get these things in order you will simply marry a woman and make her your new mommy who washes your underwear, cooks your meals, balances your checkbook, pays your bills, and tucks you in at night like a good little boy. For the first few months she will think it is cute, and then she will purchase a handgun and start quoting verses to you about working and being a man.
You will notice, however, that this decree is not given to women. Women are to be, if you will, taken care of by their father until their husband comes along. This does not mean that a woman doesn't go to college, work etc. But, it does mean that she is not to be expected to set up her entire life and invite a man to join her since she is the helper and the man is supposed to lead the way.
Second, you must find a wife and marry her. This involves courting her, winning her hand, winning her fathers hand, and having her join you in serving God through the remainder of your life. This is your goal. You want to work for a covenant. You are not looking for a date. You are not looking for a girlfriend. You are looking for a wife and you are living your life in such a way as to be attractive to a woman and her father by proving you are ready for a lifelong covenant.
Third, you can then have covenantal sex with that woman. You cannot have sex with that woman outside of the covenant. Sex is a gift of the covenant and to take the gift without the covenant is adulterous thievery since you are taking something that does not belong to you from someone who does not belong to you.
If you are a foolish man you will in some way disrupt this God-ordained flow. For example, you will have sex with a woman while you are living with your parents. Or, you will get your own place and either live together or once and a while "accidentally" fall asleep while watching a movie and spend the night together upon occasion which in your mind does not count because it was such a terrible "accident" that seems to happen all the time along with the other "accidents" like putting your hand up her shirt or grinding on her like some rutting beast during mating season who rubs his antlers on trees in a show of manhood.
But, the words of Moses, Jesus, and Paul should outweigh your folly. Leave your parents and grow up. Get a godly woman and enter a covenant with her. Then, become one with her.
[This message has been edited by Pastor Mark (edited 03-31-2001).]
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Inigo Montoya
Junior Member   posted 04-01-2001 12:30 PM             
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"Finish your outdoor work and get your fields ready;
after that, build your house."
Proverbs 24:27
It must be acknowledged that preparing oneself for marriage vocationally can be very trying at times without the aid of a helper. Over the last year or so, I have come to the realization that he whole concept of leaving makes it all the more important that I work very hard through my college years (not to say that I should be lazy at other times).
So far as I have undertaken this, I have already run into the temptations of idolatry, fearfulness, and laziness. It is easy to idolize my vocation, or idolize the young woman I am interested in as I work. It is easy to be fearful of what God has in store for my future and shrink away from it. It is easy to just sit around being unpriductive and undisciplined, and allowing myself to get distracted all the time.
"A little sleep; a little slumber,
a little folding of my hands to rest--
and poverty will come on you like an armed bandit
and scarcity like an armed man."
Time to re-evaluate how I spend all of my time. (Which is actually not even mine, but a gift from the Lord like everything else.) And get ready to work hard this week.