Tuesday, July 29, 2014

the raw text (no pun intended) of William Wallace II's January 8, 2001 thread "Using your penis" UPDATED WITH SCREENCAP

Presented with a few paragraph breaks for easier reading but otherwise the text from another thread started by William Wallace II at the old Midrash which has been preserved. This content, as well as the content from the "Headship" threads were not necessarily preserved by The WayBack Machine and since Mars Hill has gone to such lengths in the last five months to introduces robots to preclude WayBack Machine crawls from happening or from pulling up previously accessible content sometimes the raw text may have to suffice. 

UPDATE 07-30-2014
In case anyone might wonder whether the content presented below is actually content from the old Midrash, Wenatchee The Hatchet has been given an old html preserve that should help clarify the veracity of the content. 



So, another thread, started the month after "Pussified Nation", by William Wallace II (better known as Mark Driscoll) ...

Author  Topic:   Using your penis 
William Wallace II
Member   posted 01-08-2001 10:59 PM             
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The first thing to know about your penis is, that despite the way it may seem, it is not your penis. Ultimately, God created you and it is His penis. You are simply borrowing it for a while.

While His penis is on loan you must admit that it is sort of just hanging out there very lonely as if it needed a home, sort of like a man wandering the streets looking for a house to live in. Knowing that His penis would need a home, God created a woman to be your wife and when you marry her and look down you will notice that your wife is shaped differently than you and makes a very nice home.
Therefore, if you are single you must remember that your penis is homeless and needs a home. But, though you may believe your hand is shaped like a home, it is not. And, though women other than your wife may look like a home, to rest there would be breaking into another mans home. And, if you look at a man it is quite obvious that what a homeless man does not need is another man without a home. Paul tells us that your penis actually belongs to your wife, and once you are married she will trade you it for her home (I Corinthians 7:4), and every man knows this is a very good trade for him to make.

With his penis, the man is supposed to please his wife and learn how to be patient, self-controlled and be educated on how to keep his home happy and joyous (I Corinthians 7:3). The man should be aroused by his new home, and his wife should rejoice at seeing his penis rise to greet her (Song of Songs 5:14b).

[This message has been edited by William Wallace II (edited 01-08-2001).]
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TheOgre
Member   posted 01-08-2001 11:59 PM             
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Ok man, I get the point. But I don't understand where you keep getting these graphic depictions out of scripture. I looked up Song of Songs 5:14b. "His body is like polished ivory decorated with sapphires." Great, so I know Song of Songs is VERY graphicm in many spots, but I don't see where you get the "seeing his penis rise to greet her" from, HERE. It seems to me that the only reason you like doing this is to tick off less "Manly" men who don't think people should say the "p" word out loud. So maybe you'll label ME as a "pussie" now. Maybe you should take a look at Matt Verm's latest post, and next time you quote scripture for these images, make sure its really there.
your brother in Christ,
Tim
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William Wallace II
Member   posted 01-09-2001 09:20 AM             
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That verse in the Song of Songs was translated by some cowards. She likens her husbands penis to hard white ivory. In your NIV the footnote at the botton says it's the "lapis lazuli" which is the penis. The Bible translators are so skiddish they couldn't actually say what the author said. They do the same thing with the woman's body in Song of Songs 7:2 where they say that her belly button is round, red, and moist with a sweet taste. Guess what, it's not her belly button. Very sad, I'd have to say that if you can't just say what the Bible says but need to make it G-rated then you've got a low view of Scripture.
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TheOgre
Member   posted 01-09-2001 09:28 AM             
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yeah. I'd tend to agree. If you are honest, the Bible is rated R. But lapiz lazuli is a blue, hardened clay like rock used in ancient jewlery. Not meaning to split hairs man, but I still don't understand where your getting this stuff. (Okay, I DO know about the "belly button" mistranslation though.)
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Squatting Bear
Member   posted 01-09-2001 06:06 PM          
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And who said exegesis was boring?
Woo hoo!
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hopeful
Member   posted 01-09-2001 09:48 PM          
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does anybody have reference material suggestions for this man so we can get on with things?
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William Wallace II
Member   posted 01-18-2001 11:13 AM             
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Christian pornography. Christian phone sex. Christian cyber-sex. Christian lap dances.
Someone recently asked me about these issues. And, they are quite valid.

The problem with many unfaithful unmanly unmen is that they have heads filled with desires and dreams, but they marry a Christian women raised on a steady diet of gnosticism (so she hates her body) psychology (so she thinks too much before she climbs into bed) and guilt ridden don't have sex because it's a dirty nasty thing that God hates and makes you a slut youth group propaganda from hell/Family Books.

So the poor guy is like a starving man who is told he can only eat once ever couple weeks and his restaurant only has one crummy unspiced bland item on the menu and he either eats it or starves to death.

Bummer for that guy.

What the guy wants is to see a stripper, a porno, and have some phone and cyber sex. What the guy needs is a good Christian woman. The kind of woman who knows that men like unclothed and sexually aggressive women. Why? Because they are breathing. As long as a man is alive he is ready for sex every minute of every day.

Ladies, listen closely. The guy will never get the big dreams out of his head. He can either explore them with his wife, become bitter and sexually repressed, or sneak off to Deja Vu or log on to the net and escape in a moment of adventure. Birds fly, ducks float, dogs bark, and men think about sex every minute of every day because they have a magical ability to continually think of two things at one time, one of which is always sex. Any man who denies this is a liar or has broken plumbing.
So it would behoove a good godly woman to learn how to strip for her husband. Some nice music, a couple of drinks, candlight and a wife who has thrown her youth group devotionals to the wind would be nice. Most women do not do this because they are uncomfortable with their bodies. Know that for a man there are two variables with a woman's body. One, what does she have to work with? Two, how does she use it? Now I will tell you a secret, number two is the most important.

How about a Christian guy who wants to watch porno? Maybe his wife should get a Polaroid and snap a few shots of her in various states of marital undress and bliss and sneak them into his Bible so that when the guy sits down to eat his lunch at work and read some Scripture he has reasons to praise God. Or, maybe if the lady would plug in a camcorder and secretly film herself showering, undressing, making love to her husband etc. she could give it to him when he's on the road for weeks at a time, or maybe just so the poor guy can see his wife as some undressed passionate goddess. I have yet to find a wife take me up on this be rebuked by her husband.

And what guy breaking his stones on the job every day wouldn't like a hot phone call from his wife now and then telling him in great detail what awaits him when he gets home. Or how about the occasional instant explicit message from his wife rolling across his screen giving him some reasons to expect that dessert will precede dinner that night.

Do you know why the adult entertainment industry is raking in billions of dollars? Because people like to have sex and have fun. Does it lead to sin? Yes. Can it lead to worship. Of course. If you resist this message, please stay single until you get your head straightened out. If you are married and fully constipated, bummer for you and your upcoming divorce.

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William Wallace II
Member   posted 01-18-2001 11:27 AM             
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The guy asked me, so what about when my wife has her cycle, has physical problems, or is recovering from a birth?

Husbands, you need to talk about this with your wife. The average Christian wife does not know that just because she's on the bench that a game cannot be played.

Think about it. It is mean and cruel to let a guy run wild three weeks a month, and then set him on the bench for a week.

I had a wife ask me if it was okay for her to find alternate ways to please her husband when she had her cycle and/or when pregnancy prevented regular intercourse.

Okay?

Uh. Duh.

A woman has a mouth, breasts, a bum, hands and other parts that when properly used can and do serve quite nicely for the full menu of intimate options. And, a woman who explores all her options and uses them well will likely find that her husband is a nice guy every week of the month every month of the year and really appreciates a woman who knows how to take care of her man.
And, he will most appreciate a woman who allows him to explore ALL of her body with her so that he can learn how to please her and cause her to be deeply satisfied and loved with the body God has given him to give to her.

So, men, you cannot be a coward and a good lover. You cannot lie there and assume that the woman is Being John Malkovich and climbing in your head to read your mind and see your desires. You have to lead her. You need to speak with her lovingly, frankly, and openly. And you need to encourage her to speak to you about her fears and her dreams.

And, you need to lead her into the land of promise. I know this may take years. You will try positions and parts that don't work well for you. But, if at first you don't succeed...
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TheOgre
Member   posted 01-19-2001 10:51 PM             
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Pastor Mark, I have a couple questions.

I couldn't help but notice you saying  "The guy will never get the big dreams out of his head. He can either explore them with his wife, become bitter and sexually repressed, or sneak off to Deja Vu or log on to the net and escape in a moment of adventure. Birds fly, ducks float, dogs bark, and men think about sex every minute of every day because they have a magical ability to continually think of two things at one time, one of which is always sex."

So, a man is either thinking about having sex with his wife, or off masturbating, or viewing porno over the internet somwhere. "He can never get the big dream out of his head." hmm. Bummer for those young unmarried fellows, who don't have wives, because I guess they have no other choice but continually lust eh? Guess that's a particular bummer for me, cause I happen to be a young man, who won't get married until he has a decent job to support a family. So I guess, since I don't have a wife, I'm stuck with only three options. 1) I can view porno, 2) I can masturbate, or 3) dream. lame. Not only is this untrue, but it is also unbiblical. We are not slaves to sin anymore. Males always do have hormones pumping through their bodies. But, "No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it." I blatantly disagree with what you said. My father is a manly man. When he takes a trip to china, to give a symposium on the acoustic whatevers of bubbles in low gravity environments, or whatever, he DOES NOT need a picture of my mother stripping, to keep him a way from porno. Why? He loves the Lord. More than anything else. He is not a slave to sin. He is a pure man. Yes, he has told me that he faces temptations. But, through the grace of God, he can overcome those. It is the same with any Christian.
Second, do you believe a man can sinfully "lust" after his wife? Though I am not married, I always assumed he could. He can still use his wife as a chunk of flesh. He can still stare at her body as merely an instrument of pleasure. Am I wrong? You seem to advocate "christian" pornography. In my mind, this puts those "Christian Kid" and "Tommy Hell fighter" shirts to shame. Perhaps I'm wrong here, and if so, correct me. Sex is worship. Like a song. We can sing it in an empty way, not thinking, and so misuse the Lords name in vain. Just because the song is a worship song doesn't mean we can do anything we want with it. Isn't it the same with sex? Though the women may be the man's wife, can't he still indulge in Sex in an unholy way?
[This message has been edited by TheOgre (edited 01-19-2001).]
[This message has been edited by TheOgre (edited 01-19-2001).]
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William Wallace II
Member   posted 01-20-2001 12:22 AM             
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Can a man have healthy, godly, physical lust for his wife. Yes. And he should. His imagination should be filled of redeemed images, images of his wife. And yes, her body. Not just a "chunk of flesh" but her body in passion as a woman devoted to him and entrusting herself to him at her moments of greatest vulnerability.

A Christian married couple has tremendous freedom to explore all of their sexuality. The problem is that rarely are they encouraged to do so, and consequently one or both of them are filled with curious thoughts that they never pursue because they does not know the freedom that they have in Christ. Does the Spirit give a man strength to not sin. Of course.

And one of the ways God helps a man not to sin is to give him a wife so that when he wants to see a naked woman, he can look at her. And, when he wants to touch a naked woman, he can touch her. And, if he has a curiousity he can explore it with her. Therefore, it greatly benefits the average Christian man to grow up early, prepare to care for a wife, and take one.

Let's just be honest. The Christian divorce rate is now as high or higher than unbelievers. Porno has enslaved pretty much every young male in varying degrees. A recent survey also indicated that over half of evangelical pastors have committed adultery. This being so it is therefore not surprising that the pulpits in our day lack much clear and free teaching on sexual matters since so many servants of God are so compromised. And, what young men should not be told is to kill their desire, but to instead channel toward the covenant of marriage with a woman they adore and can trust with their desires.

A couple may not use all of their freedom, which is fine. But, they may also use all of their freedom. Either way, they need to explore their desires and learn to serve each other so that bitterness does not develop and the enemy gain a foothold. I would also add that if you plan to be with one woman for 60 years you should plan on using your imagination to keep things fresh and growing like all other areas of the marriage.

You may disagree. You are also single which may explain why. Until you take a wife I would encourage you to dream. The beginning of the Song of Songs is prior to their marriage and includes very graphic details of what they long to explore together in their sexual covenant. Dream about being with a woman and enjoying her, and learning to satisfy her also. When this crosses over into looking at porno or fantasizing about a particular woman it is lust. If it does not cross that line then you are merely renewing your mind to be a husband.

Lastly, can a man have sinful sex with his wife? If he harms her, if he is unloving, if he is unfaithful, if he is comparing her to other women, if he is degrading of her etc. of course. But, in 60 years of marriage the average couple will have some days where one person just really wants sex and jumps on the other. When you're married, it's a compliment. I know of no wife who doesn't like her husband to call during the day and tell her how he adores her body and can barely contain himself from jumping out of his skin because he wants to come home and explore her and enjoy her. I'd say it's flattering and reassuring.

With all due respect, your head is tweaked. It is likely either by being raised in the church and having a poor understanding of sexaulity from teaching that had it's goal prevention rather than healthy worship. Or, porno and sinful relationships with women may be to blame. These are the two most frequent culprits these days.

Do you really think that if your mom slipped a photo of herself in your dad's briefcase before a long road trip that she would be a wicked woman and that him closing his eyes and dreaming about the body God gave her would be inappropriate? Grow up.

It's a good question and I appreciate you asking it. But, it further proves the entire case I am making here as do most of the posts.
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TheOgre
Member   posted 01-20-2001 10:53 AM             
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I stand corrected. However, and I don't care whether you disagree or not, I think it is possible for a young man to keep a clean mind, by the grace of the Holy Spirit. He does not have to be enslaved by porno or lust, simply because the Holy Spirit is stronger than that.
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William Wallace II
Member   posted 01-20-2001 01:20 PM             
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I would agree. But, your goal is not to never have a sexual thought. Your goal is to get married and have redeemed sexual thoughts. So, the best thing is to not ignore your sexuality as a single man, but instead direct it toward being a husband one day. The problem is that many young Christian men do avoid lust and the like, but when they get married they view sex in an ill fashion and have a very rough adjustment to marital sexuality. That is why lust and porno etc. is so bad, it teaches a man to disconnect his sexuality from a wife and a covenant.
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mens
Junior Member   posted 02-01-2001 09:57 PM             
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I must admit, I checked out this thread becuase I was curious about the title, and I saw that Braveheart Junior started it.

This is the first time I have ever been encouraged to participate in such activities, so naturally I have a couple of questions.

If a woman uses her hands, breasts, bum, mouth, and other body parts to satisfy a man, is this leaving the natural use for the unnatural? That verse is not very specific. You also said that a man will find a very nice home for his penis when he gets married and looks down at his wife. Does it matter that these other body parts are not that home?

Christian pornography, phone sex, strippers, and lap dances.

These activities are developed by secular society. Is it okay for Christians to adopt them just because we call them worship?
mens
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ReformUrAss
Member   posted 02-02-2001 12:46 AM             
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Man I get weirded out by guys who want to dispute about this stuff.
Mens: Do you think when God see's married people using these other body parts he says "What are they doing! I didn't think they were gonna uses those thingys for THAT!"
I hope you are just asking these things so when your wife objects you can have some good content to back your arguement.
Here lay this one on her:
"A loving doe, a graceful deer- may her breasts satisfy you always, may you ever be captivated by her love" Proverbs 5:19
I got plenty more if she doesn't break with that one.
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Porkfry
Member   posted 02-02-2001 02:32 PM          
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Mens: Are you married?
<>
Talking about something totally different. If you are looking for biblical verses on said parts being used for said activities in the natural manner please see the Song of Songs.

<>
It's a package deal. Your Garage in your house isn't your home, Your bathroom isn't your home, your bedroom isn't your home, but those parts as a whole make up your home. dig?

<>
Hmmm.....in the context they are used in the secular society they are wrong. But placed in the marriage covenant they are fair game. See song of Songs for further reference. I am aware that they didn't have phones or camera's in the OT but if they did I can bet money that they would talk about them.

<>
Please See song of songs. Mens, if a man is married and he goes and checks out some other woman's naked body, that's sin. If a man is married and he checks out his wife's naked body that's not sin, that's fun. If a man looks at a naked picture of a woman who is not his wife, that's sin. If he looks at a picture of his wife naked, that's not sin. He's allowed to do that.

If God states things are sin in one instance but not in another, don't go out of your way to make it sin if it's not.

L8R
Porkfry

[This message has been edited by Porkfry (edited 02-02-2001).]
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In His Footsteps
Junior Member   posted 02-02-2001 03:39 PM             
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>Porkfry>
If a man looks at a naked picture of a woman who is not his wife, that's sin. If he looks at a picture of his wife naked, that's not sin. He's allowed to do that.
Just a thought Who develped the picture of the man's wife? Caution... Polaroid or 1 hour Photo... Did that cause sin... just a thought..
I do get your point but I just had to add this
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Porkfry
Member   posted 02-02-2001 03:47 PM          
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I would develop my own film.
L8R
Porkfry

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DigitalMan
Junior Member   posted 02-02-2001 07:22 PM          
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As regards the film development point, I would suggest bypassing it altogether. Digital media friends. Obviously, you either own or have access to a computer; A quality digital camera costs $300.00 and is well worth the investment. If you have an AGP graphics card with video capture, a high 8 video camera may be obtained for the same price. Make your own movies. No development fees or risk. Beautiful.
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In His Footsteps
Junior Member   posted 02-02-2001 08:41 PM             
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Boy I am so sorry that as we post on here some people just dont get the jokes at times...
L8R
and by the way I do know about the digital stuff and graphics cards but thanks....
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Chipmunk
Junior Member   posted 02-06-2001 04:26 PM             
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William Wallace II <> In reply to that, I'm oh so glad that we are encouraging men to be lusting over their wife during the time they setting aside to praise God. How are they expected to be thinking about God when they have just place a picture of their naked wife in their mind? I don't know why God does most of the things he does, but I do know that we were placed on this earth to be man's companion and partner. Nowhere in that "job description" does it say that we are here to replace "God's time" that we have set aside.

And here's a question? Are you saying that if we are uncomfortable with something our husband would like us to do that it is alright for him to go and "find it elsewere"? Well, excuse me for disagreeing, but I find that utterly revulting. God has said, women are to submit themselves to our husbands, but it doesn't say that we are to be your personal exotic sex toy, just as it doesn't mean that we are to let you assult us.

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KatieVonbora
Junior Member   posted 02-06-2001 05:16 PM             
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Well I would hope that seeing my naked body would make my husband praise God for giving him such a wife.
Reread the entire bb and you will never see anyone endorseing anyone to "find it elsewhere".
We as women need to become comfortable with our bodies. If you aren't comfortable with a paticular request of your husband think about a compromise or alternative.
Sex is a wounderful gift from God to us as married couples.
(Edited due to my horrible spelling)
[This message has been edited by KatieVonbora (edited 02-06-2001).]
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Pastor Mark
Administrator   posted 02-06-2001 05:49 PM          
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Chipmunk.
Lust and wandering outside of marriage is a sin. Lust and passion in a marriage is worship. Why would you distinguish between God and your husband. If you do something nice for your husband (i.e. cook him dinner, run an errand for him, rub his neck) are you serving God or your husband? If you love God and your husband then you are worshipping God AS you serve your husband. You show love for God by loving your neighbor, it is not an either/or but instead a both/and.
Lastly, what is wrong with being your husbands sex toy if he truly loves and respects you? If you are married, I would doubt your husband would protest if the situation were reversed. I have yet to hear a Christian husband protest "she just wants sex all the time and can't keep her hands off me - it makes me sick!"
"The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband...Do not deprive each other but by mutual consent..." - I Corinthians 7:3-5
Most women struggle with this because:
1. They have had a bad sexual experience in their past (i.e. molestation, rape, bad relationship etc.).
2. They were raised Christian and the church theology intended to keep them from having premarital sex and thereby caused them to see their body and sexuality in an evil way.
3. They have husbands whom they do not trust because of such things as adultery, pornography, abuse, laziness etc.
Never forget that God created men and women to be one flesh and brought them together for union and was present at the first sexual act. Sex is never done apart from God and is therefore never a "secular thing."
Lastly, the book "Intimate Issues" by Linda Dillow is excellent on this issue for women and I would strongly encourage you to pursue more learning in this area since it will adversely harm your marriage.
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TheBruce
Junior Member   posted 02-07-2001 12:41 AM             
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To Address the Issue about Body Parts (mouth, bum, etc.) it seems pretty obvious that most body parts have multiple uses, take the hands. Building, scratching, playing guitar, typing replies on the Midrash, placing food in your mouth, picking your nose, dialing a phone, touching your wife...It seems to me that it is not unnatural for our other body parts to be used in multiple ways as well.
Also, what is unnatural in Romans 1 is not a simple matter of body parts. God intended our various parts to be used in a sexual manner ONLY with a member of the opposite sex that we are married to. It is unnatural to use those parts in a sexual way with members of the same sex.
Anyway...
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DigitalMan
Junior Member   posted 02-07-2001 01:16 AM          
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quote:
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Originally posted by In His Footsteps:
Boy I am so sorry that as we post on here some people just dont get the jokes at times...
L8R
and by the way I do know about the digital stuff and graphics cards but thanks....

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Footsteps, "I don't get the joke"? Who are you taking pictures of on film to be developed by strangers that would be eliciting lust? Is it your wife, or your hypothetical wife, or your girlfriend, or boyfriend? You know all about digital media, so why ask about the possible sin of the developer, yet state the defensive "I am so sorry that as we post on here some people just dont get the jokes at times..."?
I say it is because you do not have a subject (photographically), or you have the wrong subjects you'd like to pose for you, but won't; So, before you imply that whom you've never met (DigiMan) doesn't have some good advice for those who have (a wife), let go of your dick and your frustration, and the digital photography thing may do you some good someday. I pity you if you think that's a joke. Get a wife. If you're already married, get your wife to pose in the nude.
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lovermom
Junior Member   posted 02-07-2001 03:02 PM             
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Thanks Mark, for bringing up the book "Intimate Issues". I just read the book a month ago and it revolutionized my thinking. I am a wife, with kids. I've always been adventurous in bed and my husband and I are lucky enough to enjoy mutually orgasmic sex 99% of the time. What I realized is, sex has always been on my terms. If I'm too tired, forget it, it's not gonna happen. It's always been fine with me if we go weeks without it. Then when the time's right, we have sex and I find myself thinking "why don't we do this more often?"
Reading intimate issues has made me realize how utterly selfish and downright wrong my way of thinking was. We as women need to use sex to minister to, comfort, and build intimacy with our husbands. Men are created with a physical need to have sex on a really regular basis (ok, I can hear all the men reading this going "DUH" right now). It's so unfair for us women to hold our husbands at arms length physically, not meeting their physical needs. When we reject our husbands advances we are rejecting them emotionally. It's personal. By doing this we're losing out on marital intimacy. I know so many Christian women who like me hold the reigns on sex. Or women who would like to get pregnant so they do it with their husbands on a daily basis until they've acheived their goal and then, boom, the poor guys out of luck for the next 9 months or more.
Ladies, lets make sex in our marital relationships a priority. Maybe we could experiment and see how our relationships change if we become unselfish and deliver the goods even when we don't want to. Not only that, but we can seek out more creative and interesting ways to deliver those goods, on a regular basis.
Do it in the car, do it in the closet, do it on the kitchen floor. "You and me baby ain't nothin but mammals so lets do it like they do on the Discovery Channel."

[This message has been edited by lovermom (edited 02-07-2001).]
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Chipmunk
Junior Member   posted 02-07-2001 05:25 PM             
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Pastor Mark.
Thank you for explaining it. I'm sorry if I have come across as defensive, but I have never had anyone explain it to me like that
<< Lust and passion in a marriage is worship...If you do something nice for your husband (i.e. cook him dinner, run an errand for him, rub his neck) are you serving God or your husband? If you love God and your husband then you are worshipping God AS you serve your husband. >> And no, I'm not married, so that is also probably another reason why I didn't I was a bit on the confused side. But as said before, thank you!
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In His Footsteps
Junior Member   posted 02-13-2001 08:55 AM             
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Pastor Mark and Chipmunk..
Pastor Mark>Lust and wandering outside of marriage is a sin. Lust and passion in a marriage is worship. Why would you distinguish between God and your husband? If you do something nice for your husband (i.e. cook him dinner, run an errand for him, rub his neck) are you serving God or your husband? If you love God and your husband then you are worshipping God AS you serve your husband. You show love for God by loving your neighbor, it is not an either/or but instead a both/and.
I see an interesting stretch on words in this post (worship and honor)…
Pastor Mark> Lust and wandering outside of marriage is a sin. Lust and passion in a marriage is worship.
Mark is it really worship or is it that you are honoring God. This goes back to the order of submission and obeying God’s Word.
Pastor Mark> If you love God and your husband then you are worshipping God AS you serve your husband. You show love for God by loving your neighbor, it is not an either/or but instead a both/and.
Again this is not a form of worship but honoring God’s word.
There is a difference in the two of them. In the Greek it shows the differences:
Honor
timao (tim-ah'-o); to prize, i.e. fix a valuation upon; by implication, to revere:
Honor
time (tee-may'); a value, i.e. money paid, or (concretely and collectively) valuables; by analogy, esteem (especially of the highest degree), or the dignity itself:
Honor is putting a value on something. Like if you bought a brand new car and washed it is that a state of worship? It is more of the order of obeying God’s word by taking care of it (by keeping it well maintained it will last longer and that makes us wise stewards of the finances God has supplied us (honoring God’s Word).
Look at Proverbs 31 are we not talking the Godliest explanation of a women? It doesn’t say any form of worship but complete honor and praise.
Even in Colossians it talks about the order of submission and it is as Honor to God not worship. There is a difference.
Worship
proskuneo (pros-koo-neh'-o); (literally or figuratively) prostrate oneself in homage (do reverence to, adore):
KJV-worship.
Worship is the ultimate expression of our Love for God.
William Wallace II <> I don’t know about you or any other man but I personally would not be able to concentrate on prayer and worship with my wife posing in various states of marital undress.
If you need a picture of your wife to praise God for then do it, but make it a picture you would share with a friend..
I can see it know I reading my bible at work in the lunch room get side tracked leave it and a guy I have been witnessing to sees it and looks at it (and he has a problem with sexual addiction) what just happened? Again we are pushing the envelope of reality, but it could happen. Anyone reading this post ever lost a bible or know of someone that has?
I personally have some nice pictures of my wife (dressed) but they stay in my drawer in our room for me to see. Come to think of it I don’t even look at them when I have a picture of the Bride God has given me burnt into my memory.
Pastor Mark and WWII I challenge you to be cautious on how you view and post things as it can affect many lives if the big picture is not looked at. This is purely said as a loving brother in Christ. I love your openness and honesty but lets make sure it is not just our opinion, but it is kept in the perspective of Christ, and in doing so we would not possibly cause a brother or sister in Christ to stumble or confuse someone that is possibly considering a relationship with Christ.
God Bless


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Pastor Mark
Administrator   posted 02-13-2001 09:57 AM          
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I do not disagree in principle. However, I would define worship in this way:
God initiates with us and we respond in an appropriate way that brings Him glory and subsequently us joy.
As such, I would say that all forms of honoring what God honors, and obeying what God commands count as worship if my motive is His glory. As a side benefit, when God is glorified I have joy because I am doing what I was created to do and seeing God in His rightful place upon His throne. Therefore, if I honor my wife, I believe that is worship to God. If I enjoy being with her intimately, I believe that is also worship to God. And if I obey Proverbs 5 and become captivated by her alone and find satisfaction in her breasts alone then that is also a form of worship to God. Why, because I am doing His will, according to His word, in His covenant of marriage, for His glory.
I believe that at its' root everything I do is either worship (according to God's Word and for His glory) or idolatry (against God's Word and for the glory of someone/something else).
But, you raise an excellent point. Christians should use their freedom in Christ to enjoy the life that GOd has given them in ways that honor GOd and are not sinful and rebellious. However, maturity dictates that we would gladly set aside some of our freedoms if we were to cause someone with weaker conscience to stumble into sin.

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In His Footsteps
Junior Member   posted 02-25-2001 11:11 AM             
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quote: by Digitalman
Footsteps, "I don't get the joke"? Who are you taking pictures of on film to be developed by strangers that would be eliciting lust? Is it your wife, or your hypothetical wife, or your girlfriend, or boyfriend? You know all about digital media, so why ask about the possible sin of the developer, yet state the defensive "I am so sorry that as we post on here some people just dont get the jokes at times..."?
It was more of rhetorical comment I figured it was a digital camera and stuff but I thought it would be a good area to put the thought out there some people don’t think past their next step.
Sorry for the confusion to you.. If you read my complete posting it is referenced to the issue of putting a picture of your wife (any married couple) in marital nakedness in your bible not to the issue of type of camera. But someone not thinking could go to a one-hour photo and not give it a thought. You know I sit back and wish you would read the complete postings as we should read the bible not just the verse..
Digitalman said:
I say it is because you do not have a subject (photographically), or you have the wrong subjects you'd like to pose for you, but won't; So, before you imply that whom you've never met (DigiMan) doesn't have some good advice for those who have (a wife), let go of your dick and your frustration, and the digital photography thing may do you some good someday. I pity you if you think that's a joke. Get a wife. If you're already married, get your wife to pose in the nude.
I look at your post and your response to a post you never read completely and I do and will question any advice you decide to give on marriage. Look at the way you respond to my post that you never read completely you attack me with a mouth that is an embarrassment to you and your wife along with Christ. Look in your bible and read James chapter 3: 5-12 talks about the tongue and what comes out of it is the heart of the person. Yes I will question you and you posting and would caution anyone else to do the same thing.
Also, just for you information if you would read my original post completely you would have read that I do have some very nice pictures of my wife. But what they look like is for my wife and I. Also, I keep them in a dresser so no one ever would see them and cause them to stumble and not in my bible that could be left where some one could see them.
God Bless
[This message has been edited by In His Footsteps (edited 02-25-2001).]
[This message has been edited by In His Footsteps (edited 02-25-2001).]
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In His Footsteps
Junior Member   posted 02-25-2001 11:18 AM             
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DigitalMan
As I go back and re read agian this COMPLETE POSTING I realized that the post you replied to was a responce to porkfry. We had been posting back and forth on this.
But agian if you would have read all the postings you would have figured that out I think.
I also would suggest that you maybee look to someone (an older man maybe a father figure)to help mentor you. The reason I suggest this is it sounds like from your last post to me that you have a lot of hidden issues that cause you to strike out at people.
God Bless and good luck.

[This message has been edited by In His Footsteps (edited 02-25-2001).]
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Shibboleth
Member   posted 03-14-2001 08:36 AM             
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