Sunday, July 27, 2014

Pussified Nation page 4

 
page 4
Author Topic:   Pussified Nation
theslowlearner
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posted 12-15-2000 12:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for theslowlearner   Click Here to Email theslowlearner     Edit/Delete Message

I think a lot of trouble (in this topic and in general) started when our mother's and our grandma's told us that Christians are nice boys (and girls, but that doesn't apply in this thread) and our fathers either agreed with her or sat back and had another beer or wasn't there at all. Whichever way it was with our fathers we are/were screwed. Since we didn't have fathers who attempted to teach us the biblical meaning of manhood (and if you did fall on your knees and thank the Father from whom all good things come), most likely because they did not know themselves, we listened to our mothers and attempted to fit the bill of being "nice boys". This charade worked until we started realizing that we were not 'nice' but had no point of reference for sin because we were/are stuck in a Church filled with men in similar situations who were also attempting to be 'nice boys' so as to please their wifemoms. As teachers they perpetuate our niceness by giving us the impression that as long as we are at youth group on Sundays and perhaps Wednesdays we are fine rather than addressing our sin, giving us a swift kick when needed, and ultimately giving us a profound love of the Gospel. Thoroughly confused without even realizing it (true confusion is usually not apparent to the person confused) we begin indulging our fallen nature by jerking it (perhaps telling ourselves it is ok as long as we just imagine a white wall and not the girl we sat next to in class, the bus, church,etc... This is thoroughly disturbing because it means we have churches full of men who get a hard-on whenever they look at a white wall. I predict the downfall of Focus on the Family when James Dobson is found in a Motel 6 humping a piece of white plaster) or flirting with sex seeing how close we can come to intercourse without actually perpetrating the deed. Our youth pastor helps us with this by creating a scale of sexual acts, i.e. #1 Holding Hands, #4 Fondling Breasts, #8 Whoops, I hope you are wearing dark pants because that is going to leave a stain. (Go to any Christian Self-Destruction Store and pick up any book on sex or relationships, specifically "Relationships" by Drs. Les & Leslie Parrott, one of their masterpieces in a series of handbooks for how to be passionless men and frigid women) This becomes a sex checklist for many that is probably carried into marriage where most men probably hope they are lucky enough to bring their wives to #10.In a disjointed fashion we arrive recently at this bulletin board where Mr. Wallace has spoken the truth about where most of us are at in our manhood, and has spoken it in love. He doesn't love us for the sake of any of us feeling good about ourselves or feeling enriched, but he loves us for the sake of repentance and change, for the sake of our wives or wives-to-be and children or children-to-come. The worst thing that anyone could tell us is that we are OK because we are not, yet this is what most of us have been hearing all of our lives and we freak out whenever someone tells us otherwise.Speaking in Love does not mean being nice, but it does mean being truthful. At the risk of using a bad analogy I will openly wonder whether our past brothers and sisters were 'nice' to one another when speaking on matters dire importance (and I think the issues raised by Mr. Wallace are important)? Was the the council at Nicea cordial when standing up to blasphemy of Arianism? Was Martin Luther being nice when attacking the hypocrisy and heresy of the Catholic Church? Perhaps irrelevant questions, yet I have to wonder whether our notion of love has been so diluted by worldliness that we react with vitriol whenever someone speaks to us with true love.Obviosly much of this post is biographical in nature, but I think there are many of you who identify with some or all of what I have written.
To Newman: You are correct, this is the wrong place for you. We are not here to serve you and make you feel better about yourself. There are plenty of churches and organizations out there that will try and fix you and give you better life skills and you will all have good time being nice boys in hell. Stick around and you may also hear about the sin of lying.That will be good day because you are a liar. For Shame.

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A_Corinthian
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posted 12-15-2000 12:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for A_Corinthian     Edit/Delete Message

Amen
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skewter
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posted 12-15-2000 01:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for skewter   Click Here to Email skewter     Edit/Delete Message

hello everyone.first off, this thread has been an excellent read. thank you!here's a thought: one of the big perpetuators of this "pussification" phenomenon is the lack of a venue for "man to measure man", so to speak.there are no great institutions anymore. our politicians are not role models. our great leaders have all gone. life-long military men and officers are retiring from the service in record numbers. the generation that could build a freighter in 4 1/2 days during wartime is getting old.the struggle for food, shelter, etc. is not really a struggle anymore. it's just there. you can live. it's easy. we simply do not have a visible, undeniable reason to be men right now, something to make even the laziest of us sit up and take notice. things are peaceful.so i say, if we are to build character in each other, and teach each other to be men, than we have to do it ourselves. it starts here. let's not just keep this thing on a webpage, lets do something real. let's meet in person. have accountability to each other. revolutions have always started this way, with regular meetings of godly men.what do you say, people? are you for real?
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zugbot
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posted 12-15-2000 01:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for zugbot     Edit/Delete Message

Hats off to the slow learner. Great points. You are absolutely correct that loving someone is not the same as being nice to them. We have replaced the Biblical mandate of truth and love with the modern equivalence of affirming and molifying.Jesus did not come to earth to affirm us in our rebellion, to placate us in our sin. He came to love us and this is what His love looks like -- God accepts us in our wretchedness in order to kill us and remake us. In Bonhoffer’s words, when Christ calls a man he bids him come and die. Only when we die, may we be born again.We will remain infants and never grow up in Christ until we learn, as men, to speak the truth in love. Arguments about Wallace’s tact (or lack thereof) digress us from the fact that looking a man in the eye and telling him to get his ass in gear is an extremely loving act that, to many, does not seem very “nice”.Paul himself writes in Ephesians 4:14-15 of the direct correlation between being a man of God and learning to speak the truth in love.“Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is Christ.”Paul loved us enough to call us babies, infants. Conjurs images of diapers, bottles, pacifiers, and a lot of crying. Now that wasn’t very nice of him, was it?No. Thank God, no.zugbot
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Squatting Bear
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posted 12-15-2000 05:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Squatting Bear     Edit/Delete Message

Excellent points made by Skewter and Slowlearner! I would like to recommend for those more interested in learning about manhood than sniveling about offensive language; any of the works of Gordon Dalbey, particularly the book, "Healing the Masculine Soul." I found it to be pretty powerful medicine.
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Gladiator
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posted 12-15-2000 07:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Gladiator     Edit/Delete Message

To the people criticizing William Wallaces delivery let me ask you a question.
If someone came to you with a brand new SUV, pulled into your driveway and said "Here Stupid, take this SUV for free."
Would you accept it? I hope you say yes. Then, after answering yes, feel convicted. Have you not accepted WWII's cries because it is not good? or because it did not tickle, as an SUV would tickle?

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cell'me
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posted 12-15-2000 08:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cell'me     Edit/Delete Message

slowlearner, et al.Thanks for the add-ins. Good stuff. It seems to me in reading and re-reading this thread that many (including myself) have stumbled into a dilemma over semantics re: the word "love". Study of the Greek and Hebrew languages shows time and time again how limited our present vocabulary is in distinguishing between the variuous nuances of words like love.I have, from the beginning, agreed with Wallace's message. Yes, I believe he has spoken a relevant, cutting, much needed truth. However, I do not believe that he has spoken it in love. I could be wrong and if I am, my apologies to WW2. Yet, every time I (or others) have attempted to address him directly on the issue(s) we are met with disgust and venom. Where the hell is the love in that?I'm not talking about being "nice" to me or "mollifying" me - just respect my honest query. If I am in need of a swift kick in the ass, then so be it. Godly men in my church are doing this on a regular basis any way. But where does the presupmtion come that says I have to take this kick in the ass from an arrogant, anonymous guy through a virtual portal?And if, in the spirit of midrash, I come to this board for learning and discussion of topics such as these, shouldn't the expectation be that we can respectfully disagree and offer varying viewpoints? The light and heat from this thread doesn't bother me - the arrogant tone, personal prejudices and piss-poor attitude does. And if nothing else, that should be clearly understood I've heard it said that we all choose our own heresies. No one is infallible and perfect in their understanding of God. So, pick your ditch and start the journey.When I confront issues such as this, that appear to be in a ditch other than my own, the tendency is to get after it. Fine. But, when the argument distills down to nothing more than "me-man" and "you-pussy", it has gone astray. There is no love in debasing or devaluing another person. John the Baptist ranted and raved with the best of them, but his essential message was: repent! Not, "come over to my house, hike up your skirt and I'll pretend like I give a shit." Come on, where is the love in that?Paul was vigorous in his defense of the Gospel. However, his rants were, for the most part, limited to people he was directly or indirectly shepherding. These were faith communities Paul was somewhat intimate and fairly knowledgeable of. Will knows absolutely nothing about the people (men) He is ranting to here. And that, more than anything else, pisses me off. Again, I say, "hey great message, a little harsh, can we talk?" No, we can't. Because the "self-appointed king" is too right or too scared to have a real conversation. Where is the love in that? Sadly, I still don't see it.
p.s. Gladiator - Not much conviction here. That analogy about the SUV was a weak attempt. The comparison between someone calling me stupid and giving me an SUV and Will claiming some divine right to spout personal prejudices and hatred in the name of God is pretty far apart.

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Gladiator
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posted 12-15-2000 09:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Gladiator     Edit/Delete Message

Cell'me,
I ask you then to answer my question,
"If someone came in to your driveway and said here Stupid take this SUV for free."
Would you accept it?

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the patriot
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posted 12-15-2000 10:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for the patriot   Click Here to Email the patriot     Edit/Delete Message

First off to Gladiator, I would praise God for providing me with a new SUV, then I would forgive the chump for calling me "stupid".Second To everyone else, I think it is very impressive that you all cuss. Cussing on a message board makes you very cutting edge, hats off to you. Very seeker sensitve, and relevant. For many of you I am sure it is the first you cussed in a long time. Welcome back.Third, I find it strange that you all have unwritten rules of what message board ethics should look like, as if the Bible adresses how Will or anyone else should act on the message board. I dont think God gives a rats butt if we love one another on this thing. I am not offending a person, I am offending "Squatting bear" whoever that is. Did Jesus die for Username "Squatting Bear". Dont act like we are engaged in real relationship here. We are not. Jesus would tell us to log off, get a life, and quit wasting time acting like your opinions matter. They don't!Forth, message boards simply enable people without friends and without an audience to spout off their ignorance and give them the illusion that they are engaged in "real" minstry and debate. I hope many of you dont have an audience because you are simply dangerous and foolish, and millstones are very heavy when you are trying to swim.

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cell'me
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posted 12-15-2000 10:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cell'me     Edit/Delete Message

Gladiator,Based on these narrow parameters you've given me - I'd have to say, "Yes"!However, I doubt it would be that easy for me to accept without some attempt on my part to ascertain the motivations behind such a gift. The person offering the gift seems to have real regard for me, as evidenced by his comment, so why give it. Is it: to ingratiate himself to me; earn my allegiance; put me in my place; set me up for some future humilation; flaunt his obviously higher earning power; expose my materialistic tendencies; position me for an accident; or what? I sincerely doubt I would just take the keys and say, "hey, I never knew ya, but thanks for the wheels".That is what I have been attempting on this board. I am receiving Will's message lound and clear and like much of what he has to say. Unfortunately, any appearance in not accepting his message in total, results in some juvenile rant against any inquiry. I fail to see the reasoning behind his rage. Some are calling it love and I'm not buying it.To finish off your question - if the delivery of that SUV depended on me taking it without any doubts or questions or reservations - then NO! I would not take the vehicle. If the person bringing it to me is too much of a jerk to answer some simple, honest questions about why, then screw it. Don't get me wrong, I would love to have it. Just not at the expense of . . . whatever may be in store.
I call it common sense.

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the patriot
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posted 12-15-2000 10:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for the patriot   Click Here to Email the patriot     Edit/Delete Message

First off to Gladiator, I would praise God for providing me with a new SUV, then I would forgive the chump for calling me "stupid".Second To everyone else, I think it is very impressive that you all cuss. Cussing on a message board makes you very cutting edge, hats off to you. Very seeker sensitve, and relevant. For many of you I am sure it is the first you cussed in a long time. Welcome back.Third, I find it strange that you all have unwritten rules of what message board ethics should look like, as if the Bible adresses how Will or anyone else should act on the message board. I dont think God gives a rats butt if we love one another on this thing. I am not offending a person, I am offending "Squatting bear" whoever that is. Did Jesus die for Username "Squatting Bear". Dont act like we are engaged in real relationship here. We are not. Jesus would tell us to log off, get a life, and quit wasting time acting like your opinions matter. They don't!Forth, message boards simply enable people without friends and without an audience to spout off their ignorance and give them the illusion that they are engaged in "real" minstry and debate. I hope many of you dont have an audience because you are simply dangerous and foolish, and millstones are very heavy when you are trying to swim.

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the patriot
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posted 12-15-2000 10:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for the patriot   Click Here to Email the patriot     Edit/Delete Message

do I need to say it again?
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skewter
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posted 12-15-2000 10:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for skewter   Click Here to Email skewter     Edit/Delete Message

amen patriot! if this is thread is really describing an actual, real-life issue, than it's important to realize that there is zero chance of anything besides a discussion about it here on this message board. what's needed is fellowship, accountability, and god. did you guys watch fight club? picture that, only add god that's what we need. as iron sharpens iron... and all that.
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cell'me
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posted 12-15-2000 10:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cell'me     Edit/Delete Message

saw the movie. loved the movie. and I was kind of pissed when I saw that a Rev. Tyler Durden showed up here. Damn, should have got that screen name first.besides that, great point.[This message has been edited by cell'me (edited 12-15-2000).]
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SouthTexasDeathRot
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posted 12-15-2000 11:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SouthTexasDeathRot     Edit/Delete Message

A Corinthian
mommy tuck me into bed? And what makes you think that my mom would be nice enough to do that? Maybe I am not so well versed in the bible as you,a Bible college drop out, but at least I try. It seemed to fit. Oh, and I don't take speed. I think we are getting off topic. All~
Fight club was a beautiful movie. It made me realise that none of this is true. It is all in my head. Did I make you up?
Maybe I made God up.
Just one more thought. Now that you realise that there is a Problem STOP talking about it and DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!!!!
CANT WE ALL JUST GET ALONG???? ~no~
he he he

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skewter
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posted 12-15-2000 11:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for skewter   Click Here to Email skewter     Edit/Delete Message

an odd thought...i wrote a letter a while back to some design outfit that was putting on an anti-game installation at a museum in sf. it was all about how violent video games are bad for this and that and blah, blah, blah. my point was that in a society where all the necessities come so easy, there's not much that's actually difficult. have you ever been hungry? lacked shelter? feared for your life? i haven't. there's not much that really taxes us as men. i am never really in competition with anyone. i am completely uncompelled to excel. hence, a computer game that pits opponents together in a digital arena to fight with basically just their wits and reflexes is actually fulfilling a very primal purpose that is completely absent in my day to day life. a pretty crappy subsitute, but it's helped me see the connection. men are becoming wusses because there is no insurmountable task. there is no imminent danger. there is no CRISIS, so everything gets whacked. our leaders are a bunch of imminently corruptible yet otherwise unremarkable nobodies because nothing more is called for. now, this is where i really start to worry, because historically all empires have reached this point. after a while, when the societal goal is no longer simply to LIVE, but just to ENTERTAIN yourself, you start to see more and more excess and less and less rules. where is the moral law that can contain me, an american, a vanguard of the world's cultural and scientific elite? we're just like the greeks or romans were before those empires collapsed. as a society we belive our culture, our science, and our will are infallible and inalienable. we're not the first empire to think this way, but we might be the first empire that doesn't have barbarians at the gate, so to speak. i think that we are at the part of the societal cycle where historically, it's all about to burn. the problem is, who's left to do the burning? there is a pattern of village to community to city to nation to empire to village again. it's played itself out in every empire ever on this earth. the next time around, though, maybe there won't be any separate nations left. maybe it will play itself out on a global scale. and instead of barbarians at the gate, it will be god himself. cool, huh? but then again it would suck pretty bad, too... anyway, sorry for the tangent.
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sinner-saint
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posted 12-15-2000 11:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for sinner-saint     Edit/Delete Message

WW2If you get back to this thread (or if not),Please forgive me. The arrogance is mine. My prayers are with you.s-s
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Elder-Bob
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posted 12-15-2000 11:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Elder-Bob     Edit/Delete Message

**********WWII
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's law. I have learned a great deal from you, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When my wife tries to show me how to do something, for example, I simply remind her that I Timothy 2:11-12 says that "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent." End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. How should I deal with this?I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as it suggests in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.Lev. 25:44 states that I may buy slaves from the nations that are around us. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans but not Canadians. Can you clarify?I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 10:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?Lev. 20:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.
[This message has been edited by Elder-Bob (edited 12-16-2000).]
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Squatting Bear
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posted 12-16-2000 09:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Squatting Bear     Edit/Delete Message

Thank you Skewter!
Patriot, point well taken about Midrash's limitations and the need of a balanced life, it is absolutely unreasonable to think of a cyber chat room as community and even worse to try to use it as a substitute. All one could possibly hope for (and this is the best case senario) is some thought provoking dialogue -the fact this dialogue exists online shouldn't automatically disqualify it's content or validity as communication/exchange of ideas.
Ok, here's my rant for today....Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. And after He had fasted forty days and forty nights, He then became hungry. And the tempter came and said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread." But He answered and said, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but on every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.'" Then the devil took Him into the holy city; and he had Him stand on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to Him, "If You are the Son of God throw Yourself down; for it is written, 'He will give His angels charge concerning you' and 'On their hands they will bear You up, lest You strike Your foot against a stone.'" Jesus said to him, "On the other hand, it is written, 'You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.'" Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world, and their glory; and he said to Him, "All these things will I give to You, if You fall down and worship me." Then Jesus said to him, "Begone, Satan! For it is written, 'You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only.'" Then the devil left Him; and behold, angels came and began to minister to Him. (Matt 4:1-11)
In most native american tribal cultures, when a youth (in most tribes only the boys, in some both sexes) became of age, he would leave all human contact and go alone into the wilderness to fast and pray for days to receive spiritual guidence, a vision. This vision was to carry this person throughout the remainder of his life, providing him with a direction, an identity, protection, and knowlege of to whom he worships (either God or some sort of spirit being). I find it very interesting that Jesus, before beginning his ministry would in essence practice the Vision Quest. So my question to all the christian men seeking manhood out there, what's your vision, your direction, your purpose? Why do you even get out of bed? Where are you going and leading your family to, and why? If you as a christian are to be Christ-like, when did you go to fast for days seeking the face of God in the temple made by His hands?
Call me off my rocker, but how come Christian men don't Vision Quest?

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William Wallace II
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posted 12-16-2000 12:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for William Wallace II   Click Here to Email William Wallace II     Edit/Delete Message

In response to elder Bob.This is a simple theological question that any real elder meeting Biblical criteria could answer without complication. So, I'm assuming by your tone you are either an unbeliever, or possibly a Christian with a very low view of God's Word and in need of some sound theological instruction. In either case, I'll respond briefly because you need a man to teach you theology and I am happy to aid in your education.The law can be divided into there areas. Ceremonial laws surrounded the temple, priesthood, sacrifices and the like. Civil laws related directly to the governance of the nation of Israel as a theocracy governed by God. Moral laws related to the conduct of God's people. All of God's laws were given to expose human sin and foreshadow Christ (Hebrews 10:1) and send us running to Him for grace and his righteousness to be imputed to us because we could never earn any of our own (Romans 5:20-21, Galatians 2:21, 3:19-25) In Christ all of the law was fulfilled (Matthew 5:17), and now Christ's perfection is given by Him to His elect (Romans 10:4, 2 Corinthians 5:21). Consequently, we are no longer bound to the law but instead live under God's grace (Romans 6:14). However, the law is still good and perfect and shows us how the Spirit of God desires to work through us and change us to obey God not by our own good nature or works (which we do not posess), but instead by the power of the Holy Spirit in each child of God (Romans 8:1-17). For a further understanding that much of the Old Testament cermonial law and civil law is not binding upon believers in this present age you should read the entire book of Hebrews. However, I would strongly add that the Old Testament Law remains profitable for the believer and does have merit to their understanding of God and themselves (1 Timothy 1:8, 2 Timothy 3:16-17). Also, since Israel is no longer a theocracy, no longer has priesthood, and no longer has a temple (and has not since 70 A.D.) God has completely eliminated any attempt to live by ceremonial and civil law. The moral law, however, remains binding and universal upon believers. For example 9 of the 10 commandments are spoken of as binding in the New Testament (opinions vary on the Sabbath), and things like murder, stealing, lying etc. are spoken of frequently throughout the New Testament.Lastly, the issues you have raised are best answered by Reformed Theologians under the topic of Law and Gospel.
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William Wallace II
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posted 12-16-2000 01:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for William Wallace II   Click Here to Email William Wallace II     Edit/Delete Message

This thing has become a bloody mess. You quasi-homo thinking men have screwed the whole thing up. But, thank you for making my point so clearly.I am not a woman. So, scrap all you want. Hurl insults. Throw your petty theological darts. Have a good cry. Whatever.But do not lose sight of the issue. At some point you will all learn that I don't give a crap how you "feel." Why, because I am not talking about your right to your feelings. That is the result of feminism, psychology, and atheism which says we are all good and need to have freedom to express our goodness and receive goodness in kind.If you are a man I want to teach you a new word. Duty.I am sick of hearing about feelings. I am likewise sick of hearing about rights. I want to talk about duties. I don't want to talk about you. Look at this string. People acutally take me personally. Do you think I lay awake at night and wonder about you as an individual and your feelings and your rights? No, I think about God, His glory, and my duties to ensure He gets His glory. My feelings and rights turn me into an idol of self-worship that mitigates against Him. I am screaming at you to do likewise. And yes I am screaming, why, because listen to all the noise we've got to cut through. Even from "Christian" men who are basically practical queers that freak out when a man shows up because it become obvious that they are completely pussified. I had this conversation with a very godly, mature, and anti-feminist woman last night and after doing so I am convinced that pretty much every woman is a feminist and every man is a coward. She asked me how I felt about all that was going on in my life. I told her that while I am not Data from Star Trek, that I don't ask that question a lot. She asked me why, and I told her it is because I am a man and not a woman. I told her that she thought like a woman (relationship, connecting, feelings, emotions, rights) and that I simply could not function in the things God has called me to lead if I were a woman. She was offended and said that I was sexist. And, I responded by asking her if I could do her job (wife, mother, sister, daughter, Christian woman). She laughed and said "of course not." To which I asked, "so how come a woman can say that a man could never be like her and it's not a problem. But, if a man says that a woman could never be like him then it's sexism?"She replied, "I see where you're going. Maybe we've just believed a lie and you've stumbled onto the truth. Maybe we just all feel sorry for women and assume men are victimizers and women are victims so they get a blank check to run free and the men should shut up and take it."The truth is this, we were created male and female. A man is not a woman and a woman is not a man. A man may buy breasts and a woman may buy a penis, but that doesn't change creation. Being a woman is an incredible gift of God and anyone who denies the woman her feminine dignity should be shot. Hear me. I am not saying men are good and women are bad. I am saying they are different not because of culture or sexism but because of God's created order and fully equal designed for cooperation, not competition, under the headship of the male with the female functioning as the supporting helper. Our problem is a completely androgynous world that believes, wrongly, that we come into this world gender neutral and get to be socialized and eventually pick a gender. But, in our post-war, post-industrial world we no longer need men. They won the wars, built the roads, created the machinery and now that we're fat and happy women have risen to power through more covert means of directing the conversation to victimization, hurt feelings, rights, power struggles and the like. The response to this soft feminism is not hard chauvinism, but Biblical manhood and womanhood whereby we clearly define and enforce men's and women's roles. As a man, you have duties. From this post forward I will be speaking very forthrightly to Christian men about their duties to tell the truth, be courageous and strive for long forgotten virtues like stoicism, honor, courage, discipline, sacrifice, excellence, headship, and competition.We have only begun. Read this string. We have much left to do. And, yes the movement is real. The Founding Fathers are chosen, headquarters have been purchased, the Constitution is laid down and we convene in January in Seattle. Then, we will be posting nationally on our own web site and in the Spirit of Fight Club we will go national. Some cities have already contacted us and are online for Operation Backlash. [This message has been edited by William Wallace II (edited 12-16-2000).]
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sinner-saint
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posted 12-16-2000 04:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for sinner-saint     Edit/Delete Message

In response to everything:Perhaps we should talk about the parameters of grace as defined biblically. This is a sidenote to the whole thread of biblical manhood, but as long as we don't rabbit-trail (everyone), this is foundational.Wallace recently posted a response to Elder Bob shedding some biblical light on the Law and Gospel tension in a believer's life. And here, if you aren't a believer in Christ Jesus as both Savior and Lord Almighty, you will get tripped up and confused with every step. Not until one understands the meaning and purpose of Law will they have any grasp of the need, the fullness, and the fruits of God's saving grace poured out through the sacrifice of Jesus.I could hardly exhaust this topic in a post, or in twenty posts, and as hard as I try and as much thought and wisdom I pour into this writing, the blessed fact remains that coming to an understanding of Law and Gospel is the work of the Holy Spirit on our hearts and minds. So I wholeheartedly point all who query to read the Bible and not look for a quick answer in a single Scriptural passage. Read the bible. Want to make it easier? Okay, read only the New Testament, then go back and (whatever order you decide to read it all) read the entire bible. Take all the time you need. It takes awhile, and I suggest you read everything as many times as you can and put some thought into it. So start now. And do it till you're dead. And don't ever conclude you've got it all down. Live on what you know, but don't stop there.That said, back to the parameters of grace...I'm going to assume everybody's heard or read John 3:16. And unfortunately (and to their own perish), that's about all most people care to know and claim. It's a beautiful verse with impactful meaning. It's the truth of God that whoever believes in the unique Son of God, begotten of God, shall not perish but have everlasting life. But taken alone this verse has been used as a copout for every person who in truth does NOT actually believe in the person, work, and word of Christ and holds to the nonexistent eleventh commandment, "Thou shall not judge". This is both a cause and complement to the worldwide epidemic of men without balls or fortitude, without honesty or courage, without spines and without conviction. I know too many people who think the entire meaning of the bible is "God loves everyone. Don't judge anyone. Be happy in the filth of your life and let your eyes be misty with sentimental visions of the day God welcomes you through the pearly gates. The end. Amen". What a crock! I lived with that mentality for nearly twenty years and my whole vision of God was that he was a helper who conformed his will and desire to mine, and when I asked for things to my own destruction, he'd bring it to pass, because it was all about me. Then I woke up, praise the Lord!Every pussified man runs around trying to live his autonomous, "independant" life without a serious care of who he really is, who God is, who his neighbor is, what's expected of him, what loving means. He's selfish (both by nature and by choice) and he seeks his own glory. As many have alluded to before, he bows to every pressure from the feministic world to appease, or (just as bad) he inflates himself with machoness and further proclaims his independent, yet domineering self-identity. And since he's his own man, and since he knows what's best for himself, any opposition to his precious self-idolatry is met with the blanket ammunition of "Don't judge me. Jesus taught not to judge". He did? Funny you mention Jesus, because I was wondering what else he taught? You hold to those words like they're the unshakeable foundation of life, but you can't tell me anything else he said. If this Oprah-Jesus is such a fundamental part of your worldview, teach me your religion, you proud worm, and I'll show you who your god is.The worm who thinks like this is outside the parameters of God's saving grace. This sounds shocking to most people, because today the word grace is synonymous to words like "fuzzy", "blanket", "comfort",
"tolerance", etc. and the word Truth is questioned altogether. Christ came full of grace and truth (see John 1:1-18), and without truth, grace is not grace. It cannot be. For a good survey on Truth, see the entire book of Romans. Particularly, for the verdict laid on all of mankind, see chap. 1:18-23 and 3:10-18. God is not happy with sin. He never will be. God is angry and wrathful toward sinners. 1 John 1:5-7 -- "This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin."If you think for a moment that being covered by grace means you can totally disregard the commands of God, you live your life in vain. You do not know God. You do not fear God. You do not love God. You will not see God. You are lawless and vile and already condemned. "For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is DEATH, but to be spritually minded is LIFE and PEACE. Because the carnal mind (the sinful nature) is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God." Romans 8:5-8.You can try to be "good" with one of two motives. You can do so to make God and your neighbor happy with you, which is doing it by your own strength, on the outside while your heart is wicked inside. This is also doing it to your own glory, trying to earn a pass into heaven and good marks with God, pats on the back from your "brother". This is moralism and self-worship. Those who go this route are notably marked with constant anxiety because they never stop evaluating themselves and judging others, and in their heart of hearts they know they can never be good enough, but try to fool themselves anyway.OR, you can do all good works IN LIGHT of God's full revelation in His word. That is, for those who believe, yes God is truly Good, yes I am truly wicked. Yes, God took the punishment due me and laid it on Christ His Son. Yes, I do not deserve this immeasurable gift. Yes I am adopted into God's family with the full righteousness of Christ. Yes, I am in God's grace and sealed to Him by His Spirit. Yes, Praise God, I will ever be with Him! And yes, by all means, I want to work out this precious salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in me both to will and to do according to His good purpose. I am not my own, I was bought for a price. May Your will be done. Amen.Sin still has consequence. Evil is always evil, whether you are saved or perishing. So wake up! Sin no more. Be clothed in Christ and walk a walk worthy of the calling with which you've been called. Do good, delight in God's commands, love truth, hate evil, be conformed to the image of Christ!
Be a man.
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sinner-saint
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posted 12-16-2000 04:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for sinner-saint     Edit/Delete Message

WW2,In your list of long forgotten virtues, you mentioned competition. Could you expand on this? Thanks, s-s
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skewter
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posted 12-17-2000 06:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for skewter   Click Here to Email skewter     Edit/Delete Message

pastor mark weighed in on this topic tonight. coincidence?
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Porkfry
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posted 12-18-2000 10:26 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Porkfry     Edit/Delete Message

I was speaking with a friend of mine today and he brought up something that I didn't think about, that I think might fit in here.Our Generation has never had to "grow up". WE haven't had a war (skirmishes don't really count against a world war), a depression, or some other kind of catastrophe that has really made the men stand up and be men. All we have to do is sit and play video games, or watch sports kick on the WWF. Our lives are centered around fixing up our Cars to make them up to par with the next guy. Or even our computers for that matter. RAM becomes more important than manhood. DSL or A cable modem is WAY better than some sort of "relationship". A Dolby surround sound system with a 88 inch flat screen TV with a DVD player becomes the new "girl friend". Our things provide "men" today with more companionship than actual companionship. So then when actual companionship comes into the picture it's only for something physical. If it gets to that point there is not real reason to get married because in the end what kind of commitment are you going to be willing to have in a disposable society. Where it costs more to fix something than buy a new product.
I like taking trains of thought or societal worldviews and try to see their ultimate end. This one however slipped past me that a capitalist society with no conflict would lead to an extreme love for things and a disassociation with the rest of man kind.
Porkfry
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wifey poo
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posted 12-18-2000 01:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wifey poo   Click Here to Email wifey poo     Edit/Delete Message

Men, I salute you. Thank you for the realization of your God-given duties. I will continue to pray that you will be strong and courageous. You can pray that the years of femi-education will be stripped from the women in your lives as you love and serve them as Christ did the church. And that they will awaken as women excited about their God, the plan of His creation, and the men He has called them to serve and love.
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Squatting Bear
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posted 12-18-2000 05:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Squatting Bear     Edit/Delete Message

Porkfry,
Correction, there was a war, anyone remember the Gulf War? It was a weird sensation sitting at home watching my friends on CNN taking Iraqis prisoner. Made me feel very old.

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KatieVonbora
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posted 12-18-2000 05:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for KatieVonbora   Click Here to Email KatieVonbora     Edit/Delete Message

I am a woman and I am not in any way offended by the word pussy or pussified in this thread. I believe that this is a long time coming. This is an important issue within American, paticularly Christian society. To give you some background to know where I come from.....I am a VERY happily married, indian, Christian woman. I am childless, not for biological reasons. I do not stay barefoot and pregnant and I happen to be one of the MOST stubborn people you will ever meet. I have to control my sailors tongue and I love to argue. But I understand that as both a Christian and a wife it is my responsiblity to submit(not roll over and die) to my husband. Two people cannot walk thru a door at the same time, one must lead. It is not a matter of superiority or one being less worthy than the other. I support this movement wholeheartedly. Because before we can be the wives and mothers that we should be our husbands must figure out the paradox of masculinity. I must say though that I have seen more whining in the last four pages than at a full days work at a childcare center. You are all getting off the major point....what does being a man mean? It isn't grunting and pounding of chests, although I have seen alot of that. That is a good start I guess....When will this posting on the BB end and the actual accountablity begin? Because if all you do is talk you are all proving yourselves liars.
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Porkfry
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posted 12-18-2000 07:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Porkfry     Edit/Delete Message

Squatting Bear:Well that was the "Conflict" I was talking about. A good friend of mine was in one of the "Tank killer" divisions of the army and he had a number of horrific pictures that he showed me how ugly the fight was. Although I know a lot of people died and I am not trying to belittle their pain due to Gulf war syndrome or watching one of their buddies die. In the grand scale of world wars...well that wasn't as big as W.W.II (not William Wallace) Or W.W.I. I didn't remember a huge call to arms being heard through the streets where everyone went to benefit the war. I don't recall my mother leaving her job in the dental industry to go to work in a bomb factory...or off somewhere making ships or planes.So when I say war I am looking at the one's that have shaped our country due to the huge Sociological changes that arose due to the war. Anyone remember "Rosie the Riveter"? I don't recall any pro-war propaganda posters like that. Plus that was the first time women really left the "home" to go to work. Yes the Gulf war was bad. In the grand scheme of things it was a "war" but not every man had to go. Not everyone was as effected as people were during W.W.I, W.W.II and Vietnam. Those brought about social change and conflict inside the system. We...me...everyone in our generation (post boomer) have really lived in a nice cushy environment. Conflict Brings change. For without conflict you can't grow.Sorry if I wasn't clear the first time through...Porkfry
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hopeful
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posted 12-18-2000 09:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for hopeful     Edit/Delete Message

Anybody interested in a film that relates to the pussified topic. I regretfully saw "What Women Want". The man is pussified. The theme is feministic.*****Twisted Quotes from the film.*****"Only a gay man can satisfy a women in the sack.""Women are Knights in shining armor instead of men""Its a womens world out there"It made me sick!
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shaun
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posted 12-19-2000 04:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for shaun   Click Here to Email shaun     Edit/Delete Message

William Wallace II,In your response to Elder-Bob you assumed by his tone that he was "either an unbeliever, or possibly a Christian with a very low view of God's Word and in need of some sound theological instruction..." I propose, as you proceeded with your good explanation of Law, Gospel, and Grace, that that was the entire point of his post, to remind you of this... That the scripture I Timothy 2:11-12 ("A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.") can be included in the category of Law and there is little grace with which you have dealt women in some of your posts. I maintain not all of your posts, and you have graciously apologized for 'backhanded' tone and in turn dealt respectfully with women. So, a danger, I think has been made obvious, is the extreme in the application of that specific scripture and others like it. Now I see that there are beginings of constructive discussions about the role of men and women in the home, church, and world, in response to some very valid complaints and points you have brought up. Let us continue in this. What is this about "... You quasi-homo thinking men have screwed the whole thing up?" Ecc. 7:13 says, "Consider the work of God; For who can make straight what He has made crooked?" and, vice versa.... If this movement, as ReformUrAss has brought up, is the way of of God, then who can screw it up?shaun[This message has been edited by shaun (edited 12-19-2000).]
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A_Corinthian
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posted 12-19-2000 08:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for A_Corinthian     Edit/Delete Message

HEY REFORM!!!!! When this starts, im taking glatiator, and your cage faze, baby calvinistic, butt down.....
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Porkfry
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posted 12-19-2000 09:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Porkfry     Edit/Delete Message

I'm totally in! Last night I was chillin with my wife and out of the blue she asked me if I was reading the "Pussified nation" thread on the Midrash. I was totally blown away. Manly because I didn't know she read the Midrash.So she tells me that Mark's sermon was almost Verbatim from this thread...So I started to wonder who WWII actually is. So I come in and I read the entire thread and I just wanted to say that I'm not so sure it's Mark. Either way...that's neither here nor there. The main point to this post is the following. I have only been a Christian for about 2 and half years. From where I stand I think I'm doin ok in the "Man of God" area although I could be sorely mistaken. That being the case I know that I have more to work on. Mainly because I didn't really have a "stable" home environment with a real Father figure or a manly figure for that matter. All the men that were in my life either beat the Crap out of my mom or were drug addicts. I never really had a good example to look up to as to what a Godly man should be like. So now I am at the point in my life where I want to be the Man that God has called me to be. I want to be the spiritual leader of my household. I want to be a good example to other young men in the church as to how to be in the role that God has given them.So with that said I want to sign up for the Movement. My only desire in this life is to do the will of God and to be a Good husband for my wife. I grew up pussing out I don't want to do that any more. Over the past 2 and a half years God has really been working on me in Overdrive. I have come to the realization that I have duties that God has set up and I want to learn more about those duties. My life is Forfeit. My feelings are Forfeit. My wants are forfeit (although my self-centered nature doesn't like that one very much)My Rights are forfeit. I am here for one reason. To Give glory to God in all things. So where do I go to hook up and gimme the papers to sign. I'm in.Porkfry[This message has been edited by Porkfry (edited 12-19-2000).]
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Jebus
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posted 12-19-2000 01:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jebus     Edit/Delete Message

I find this thread so, so interesting.I don't know how to take it all. I have no intentions of throwing scripture anywhere because honestly I could take scripture and use it to back up any stance. Plus I am not the theologian a number of you appear to be.
So I won't stand up and try to impress any of you. Honestly I don't care to. So with that said I will get to the meat of this post and quit the foreplay.We have a two camps here. The Wallace camp, who could read the things he has written and take it as it is. Because of that they (being the people aligned with Wallace) have no intentions of treating women like second rate citizens. They have no intention of keeping their wives tied up in the kitchen, bare foot and pregnant. They are ready to stand up and take the Ground that they are supposed to. They are (hopefully) going to put this into action and not leave here with the energy one would have after a really good motivational speech. Where the "high" wears off in a matter of days. My hopes are that this high won't actually be a high as when a person first comes to Christ and wants to convert the world. But one just as our walk with Christ becomes as much a part of you as your walk with Christ. If you believe that Christ Died for you then you also have to believe that God has a role for you. That also being the case Man hood/woman hood is as much a part of your Christian walk as Baptism or Communion or being a Good husband to your wife or a part of your community. Then there is the non-with Wallace side of the argument that is bent about the words used in WWII's posts. Either they believe he is not being as compassionate as Christ might have been in this situation. Or his choice of words might not have been conducive to a great conversation. Where both sides walk away feeling that they are in the right and they can feel good about their decision whatever that may be. The problem with that is that this is a two sided argument. You either are on one side and you are moving toward a better tomorrow where you are a man or you stay where you are in your passive world. Cut and dry. Black and white. God Calls us to something we do it. If not we (and God) call that sin. Not everything gets put in a nice user friendly package. Not every time you get reprimanded are you going to like it. However we are called to hold each other (in the body) accountable for their actions. That being the case, I feel that WWII is completely in the right. The body doesn't just mean your local church. If you are my Bother/sister in Christ I am going to hold you accountable. And I pray that you would do the same. If you don't (just as with manly hood) you aren't doing your job. William: I don't know your heart. I can't judge that. God will. And that being the case if God has convicted you about this then my only suggestion (although it seems you have already done this) is to pray about it and make sure you are where you should be. I have a feeling you are in the right place due to the fact that your focus/motivation is the glory of God. GREAT! Keep that up. That is the point. God gets all the attention and we are just the instruments by which he gets it. Just make sure you don't get all high and mighty if this thing really goes through. I am interested to watch what happens. I will check back here often to watch it's progress.OK to all of you who read this:Screw his tone, Screw his choice of words. If you get hung up on that you are missing the big E on the eye chart. The focus (if you didn't know this already) is that Men currently aren't men. They are women, and women are men (not in the physical sense). Work towards changing that. You are called to. God is going to have words with you on either side of the gender coin if you don't find your place. Rejoice in your role. Rejoice in where God has put you. Both have dignity and both have a purpose. A great purpose. The Glory of the living God.
I know of no other thing in our world where you have that much of an honor behind your actions.
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William Wallace II
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posted 12-19-2000 01:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for William Wallace II   Click Here to Email William Wallace II     Edit/Delete Message

Now we are getting somewhere. One fundamental issue to recognize is that since Adam every one of us is trying to avoid any and all authority in our lives in an effort to become our own gods sitting on our own thrones ruling over our own kingdoms and issuing our own decrees. Pastors don't want authority, so they don't have legitimate peer based elders ruling with and over them. Men don't go to churches with other strong me who will call them to their duties. Women do not want strong men who will rule. Children do not want strong parents who will discipline them. And, none of us wants Christ as Lord, but we're happy to take Him as Savior. This amounts to saying that you'll let Jesus die for all your sin but your life is still your own, and this is simply not a Christian. Christ Himself came not to do His own will, but the will of the Father and taught us to pray "thy will be done." Jesus was completely selfless, but not for us, instead for the glory of the Father and we happen to be benefactors of that but not the primary focus of Jesus efforts. Think about it, who do you willingfully submit to? Who has any spiritual authority over you? If you are single (particularly a woman) and living on your own this may seem like the oddest question you have ever considered because the intent of your life is to have your own bank account, your own home, your own car, your own schedule, and your own life under your complete and total rule to ensure you have your "rights" and live with "convenience". Can you possibly even think that this looks to the world like Jesus Christ?This sort of autonomous independent living assumes that we indeed not sinful and prone to self indulgence and error and denies that a primary function of the gospel is to reconcile us one to another as we are reconciled to God in Christ. The entire pattern of logic is "worldly" and hellish, which would explain it's consequences that surround us.
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ReformUrAss
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posted 12-19-2000 01:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ReformUrAss   Click Here to Email ReformUrAss     Edit/Delete Message

I just heard something that made me wanna puke.Did you know that only 4% of evangelical "Christian" "men" in America tithe out of their income?I could cuss out my own string on this one but I just leave everybody with this - BULL SHIT! Do you realize that when the Bible talked about men giving a tenth of all they own, God was speaking to people living in what would be called today a third world country.96 percent of Christian men rob God on an regular basis. And we wonder why the church in our blessed country is dying like it has some sort of spiritual ebola virus. [This message has been edited by ReformUrAss (edited 12-19-2000).]
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William Wallace II
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posted 12-19-2000 01:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for William Wallace II   Click Here to Email William Wallace II     Edit/Delete Message

All true. Want to know what's even worse? The average church does not have elders who even check this. I could tell you of countless churches I know personally where the elders and pastors don't even tithe to their church and no one knows about it because no one is checking up on anybody else. Again, noboby wants any authority. Paul seems to indicate that the tithe was a bottom line lowest level of sacrifice for the believers under the law, but like all things those of us now under grace should be expected to do much more (2 Corinthians 8 & 9). The myth is that the money I have is my money and I get to determine if and how much I give to God. The reality is that everything belongs to God and I need to ask how much He wants me to borrow from Him for things like rent and food.
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William Wallace II
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posted 12-19-2000 02:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for William Wallace II   Click Here to Email William Wallace II     Edit/Delete Message

Now that we're pulling back fig leaves I'm open to suggestions. The following topics I will post in the near future and am open to other areas you may want to explore. However, just because you ask does not mean that I deem it important. So, there will be no whining.How a manly man worships his God.
How a manly man takes a bride.
How a manly man pleases a bride.
How a manly man uses his penis.
How a manly man fathers his children.
How a manly man pastors his family.
How a manly man engages sinful men.
How a manly man earns a living.
[This message has been edited by William Wallace II (edited 12-19-2000).]
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A_Corinthian
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posted 12-19-2000 02:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for A_Corinthian     Edit/Delete Message

I agree with reform and wallice.... i was part of the 96% of men that stole money from God..... it wasnt until i was reading Acts about that man Ananias with his wife, and how they withheld money they had pledged to God. Peter said that failing to fully pay what he owed to God for his tithe, Satan filled his heart. And so God killed him, and his wife. That put some fear of God into me.
I think we as christian men in this nation have lost a fear of God. Think about it...... we think of God as our father, or a friend. ....... but do we accually fear him??? Hopefully im not getting off subject, but if its going to take God, WWII, or any other thing to put the fear of God into me, so be it.
Maybe i can teach my children more than what i learned; that there is only two things in this world they should fear, God and their father......

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Porkfry
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posted 12-19-2000 02:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Porkfry     Edit/Delete Message

Will,I think that all of these are viable topics. These are things that I am seriously interested in leanring about. Hell, I think every MAN of God should have a desire to learn about these things. I would suggest writing the different topics down on a big piece of paper and throw a dart. Which ever one you hit first do a topic on that one.So how does one find out about the "Fight Club" sort of thing starting in January? News letter? Radio show of some kind? Notes passed during home room?Later
Porkfry

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