|Author||Topic: Pussified Nation|
| posted 01-08-2001 09:32 AM |
It's January what's up with the movement? All I hear is a lot of talk and a lot of whispering. No one knows anything, no one I know of has seen anything. So what's the Deal WWII?MAKE WITH THE MOVEMENT!!!
|William Wallace II|
| posted 01-08-2001 09:57 AM |
It takes a couple weeks to plan for world domination. Our first meeting will be in the afternoon on Saturday February 3rd. More details will be forthcoming...
|William Wallace II|
| posted 01-08-2001 10:14 AM |
This week I will talk about the joys of being a manly man who, though not perfect, walks in God's will.It is a burden to financially provide for one's family. Squatting Bear's posting was particularly salient on this point and is appreciated. In addition to my more than full-time job I've had to take on a second part-time job as well as the occasional one-time couple day contract. We do not waste any money, but my bride and I have decided to arrange our lives around the gospel and not the route which is easiest. Therefore, we have chosen to live in the city near our church, and have a home large enough to entertain (we currently see upwards of 3000 people a year pass through our home), house guests, and practice the fading art of biblical hospitality. As you might suggest the cost of such a lifestyle is quite burdensome to shoulder. In addition to tithing to our church, we also have thousands of dollars in related hospitality costs. It would have been much easier to move out the city far from our church and live a private and simple life disconnected from other members of God's body. But, it is a privilege and honor to open my home and serve the gospel in partnership with my wife and children and to see their spiritual gifts be used by God for His glory and others joy. At two years of age my daughter prayed over a convicted child molester in our living room. My wife frequently meets with young women to follow the admonition in Titus that older women should teach the younger. I have seen my young son become social and hospitable, often sitting on the laps of people who've had a bad day and encouraging them by his affection. We have seen couples decide to marry, unbelievers come to faith, and hundreds of people grow in faith right in our living room. But, none of this would not have been possible if my wife were at work and my children in daycare. Had I remained single out of selfishness or fear I would have learned none of the countless lessons GOd has given me through the life in Christ with my family. I am the head of this little congregation and must function as their pastor, father, and husband. It is a burden, the weight is heavy, but the grace of God is more than sufficient. I love to carry the weight God has given me and see my wife and children loved, cared for, taught, and encouraged to pursue the work of the gospel. If I were not carrying this weight I would likely spend my days in complete self absorption and wander into many sins.
| posted 01-08-2001 01:14 PM |
A friend told me I should check out this site saying Mars Hills has a cool ministry going on here. This is my first experience here. I decided to check out this posting because it is obviously a "Hot Topic".What I found here is disgusting and degrading to this forum and web site.OK, I understand here, someone was trying to make a point. To be honest, I shut off after reading the first 50 postings here. This person's point was no longer valid given the techniques he (or she) used to present it.I dont care what the point of the original posting was! Using foul, rotten language is wrong. Period! It is just wrong. Degrading and putting down others to be scarcastic is against all the teachings of Jesus. There is no room for this style within His love.I know the whole point of Mars Hill is to bring the message of Christ and his love to the community. I read several postings from members who just joined to check out the forums here. Some were Christians. Some were not. What kind of a witness and testimony is this to them? William Wallace II,
I do not know if you are a Christian or not. It is not right for me to judge you personally. I pray that others were not hurt by this disrespect for Jesus and the ministry Mars Hill is trying to promote and the lives they are trying to touch. I do not hold Mars Hill personally accountable for this thread.Additionally, I pray that the Lord grants you the wisdom and discernment to know what is acceptable and what is unacceptable in the eyes of God.I pray for peace in these forums.Blessings...John Starkey
Phoenix, AZ www.mp3.com/poorkids4u
(if you want to contact me)
| posted 01-08-2001 01:23 PM |
At the risk of sounding like some self-preening peacock, I'd like to restate my point.When scripture commands a man to provide for his own, I don't believe it was referring exclusively to the financial side of things.Exactly where does money rank?
Pretty far down there for the believer (1 Tim 6:9) I believe it is inestimately more important for the husband and father to provide love, attention, guidence, time(!) to his wife and children than being able to purchase for his family the latest Playstation or brandname jeans. A real man places the needs of his family (time and attention) over the "needs" of his employer (can you stay late?). There must be a healthy balance between work and home, but family must always take priority over career.It is a beautiful thing, Wallace, that you can involve your family in your work, that much of your work is done from your home; but yours is a very rare situation, and impossible for many.If I may wax personal, growing up my father for a number of years worked three jobs simultaneously. He would get up at 2 am for his first one, report to his second about 6 am, home at 4 or so to carve molds for machine parts until 9 or 10 pm. He was around very little. Sure, we had food, a roof, and clothing, but no dad; for when he was around, us kids were all too often hiding from his unpredictably violent temper.I can count on one hand all the times growing up that I actually had personal interaction with my dad, and while I'd give him a A+ for his superhuman efforts on the financial end; on the other aspects I'd have to give him an F. No amount of money can be worth this.I'm grown up, no longer afraid of my father, and have a wife of my own. In retrospect, I'd much have rathered that we were homeless than have my father work like he did.I'm not sharing any of this for anyone's sympathy or fuzzy feelings. I am not a victim. I only posted this as: here is what I believe, and here is why. Money is not important. Your relationships are.
| posted 01-08-2001 06:34 PM |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by skewter:
wallace hapenned to be the one that posted a message about this phenomenon. it struck a chord with a lot of people. this is how God works. who cares if wallace makes a few social mistakes? the point is still clear. you two seem to be arguing with wallace the person instead of taking the time to think about what the point of this discussion might be. what's the significance of the fact that this is the most popular thread on this board? the pussification of men is a real problem, obviously!honestly, i think your aguments are frivolous and tangential, and what's worse, you're preventing this discussion from moving forward and reaching the stage where it could be come a physical reality instead of just a discussion.
---------------------------------This is just the problem. Closing the mind in order to get something accomplished is scary. One of the reasons the culture has such a uniformly negative reaction when they hear the word "Puritan" is because of the way it worked out when Puritans closed their minds. Sin in the community? Must be because people are practicing witchcraft. Theaters? Close them. They lead to immorality. Plus, they're stories. Stories are not true. The Bible is true. Pilgrim's Progress is true. And we can cheat and kill Indians because God predestined us for this land.This is the kind of thinking that has freaked me out about Wallace's party all the way through the discussion. The category "man" is narrow and reactionary, and there is zero sympathy for males legitimately weak and effeminate. (Go ahead--attack my masculinity.) A friend of a friend came to Mars Hill, who considers himself gay (although he is not practicing), who is also relatively open to Christianity. Came and listened, and was not offended by biblical preaching against homosexuality but by a member's testimony. For this member, the acid test of whether a church was orthodox or liberal was whether or not homosexuality was accepted. I don't think it was God's law that drove this friend of a friend away, but the snide, cliquey way the member presented this opinion and the knowing titters of approval from the congregation. The friend came to church and saw another club that refused him entrance, probably the same way he had been rejected in high school or whatever. He didn't see Jesus, who would denounce his sin vehemently and tell him his identity was not "homosexual" but "sinner for whom Christ was crucified." What he got was, "Ha, ha, dumb, sub-masculine, pussified homos--none of their theology here!" I came to Christ, finally, because I realized the worst sinners could come to Jesus and be saved. Jesus hasn't given me a couple of years to get my act together and stop being weak and then come down on me with fire, although he could. He's given me grace upon grace, allowing me to come to him when I knew there was no chance of my being able to live the Christian life.I found a lot of help in Wallace's idea that it's okay for me to be a man and stop feeling guilty for it. I have also found the courage, because of some of the things he's written, to get in here and write instead of cursing people under my breath . But I think, Wallace, this is not an honest look at human beings and how they've been since Adam. Even though I agree that men should start being men (and I should, too), and we should all quit whining, I refuse to close my mind, put on a brown shirt, and start strutting around in the strength of someone else's leadership, as though I were myself strong. If someone here is strong, let him show it by building up the weak, and scrubbing some nasty toes. Some pussified, whining, no-thanks, kick-you-in-the-teeth toes.And if any one of you causes me or some other weak brother to fall by your strength, you'll have blood on your hands before Almighty God.Cell' me has more guts than me and 95% of you, just because he was willing to face off with Wallace alone when Wallace is obviously the better polemicist. You know what's sad? I hear echoes of Nietzsche in the "manly man" rhetoric, far more than Jesus. Jesus loved little children and Zaccheus' pussified, tree-climbing ass; Nietzsche condemned Christianity as "a religion of weakness." [This message has been edited by KZA (edited 01-08-2001).][This message has been edited by KZA (edited 01-08-2001).]
| posted 01-08-2001 08:12 PM |
KZA, i never advocated blind acceptance without the backing of scripture. read again what you quoted from me. what i was suggesting was some simple consideration for the implications of a discussion like this. why does it arouse such a reaction from so many of us? maybe because it's important?instead, i have to admit that this discussion has been a huge disappointment to me. all i've seen are clumsy, pseudo-intellectual characterizations of the participants(of which your post is a prime example) and not a single original insight.i'm tired of this.
|William Wallace II|
| posted 01-08-2001 10:05 PM |
Yes, a man should provide much more than money for his family. And, yes he has a right to live simply and minimally and devote a great deal of time to his family. But, this is not an excuse for a man to be less than ambitious or to force his wife to work and carry his half of the curse in addition to her own (the children). What often happens in young marriages is that the woman carries half the load and children are postponed because the woman is not encouraged to think and act like a woman, but is now a breadwinner with her attention directed away from the home. Also, it provides the man a long season of not carrying the full weight God has placed upon his shoulders which then lessens his incentive to find a way to make it all work for good. One of the ways a man shows love is through providing. When my wife and kids eat, that food is the result of my love. If I hung out with them all day and they were hungry I would doubt they would feel well loved. True, in our consumer driven world we could all get by on a lot less. But, trying to obtain as much as possible for the cause of benefitting others seems like an act of kindness. After all, if a few men don't provide more than the minimal requirements to live how will ministries be funded and single moms and kids be assisted?
|William Wallace II|
| posted 01-08-2001 10:11 PM |
The world is filled with a great number of churches and ministries sensitve to feminine (read pussified) men. These men can go there. They can read Gary Smalley and James Dobson. They can go to Promise Keepers. They can hang with Exodus International if they are gay. They can go to most any Christian bookstore and get men's devotional books with really moving stories. They can listen to Christian radio and hear men drone about how they feel. We sit on the other end of the teeter-totter. We don't like those guys, though in Christ we still love them. We don't want to sing their songs, read their books, or cry with them. We think the best place for a gay guy may be with straight guys. He may feel odd, because he is odd. That does not mean that he's not loved. He may just be experiencing male love for the first time. When my little brothers punched me growing up I did not cry and ask why they hated me. I would then punch them back knowing that it was our own little secret language of male affection. Tell your buddy if he got a punch, it might mean he's just a brother.
|William Wallace II|
| posted 01-08-2001 10:46 PM |
Do not knock the Puritans kids. The Pilgrims and Puritans are not the same guys. The Puritans produced some of the godliest Christian community and richest theology in the history of the church. The poor folks always get a bad rap by folks who have not done their historical research. One Puritan church actually brought a husband under church discipline because he was no good in bed, his wife was sick of it, and he was unrepentantly unwilling to be discipled for the bedroom. I'd have paid to be there.
|William Wallace II|
| posted 01-08-2001 10:47 PM |
Aztecjohn - thanks. You have a nice throne and we all were waiting with baited breath to hear from the queen.
| posted 01-09-2001 12:58 AM |
After reading several of the posts I think I have discovered a new system of logic. This system is grounded in, and finds its source from, the inner-testicular limbic canal (that's the part of the testical that feels the most pain when you get kicked there).
I am going to call this system of logic "Aner-Logico Syllogistic Reasoning". The word Aner is the word for "male" in the greek and is used only when an explicit distinction is being made between those with "ballzacks" and those without. Reasoning this way would go something like this:1) A question is posed (or a threat is made, whichever gets us to wherever we're going the fastest), such as: Am I a manly-man if I tell another manly-man that he's not non-manly enough? 2) Next, a painful syllogism is presented in order to kill whatever remains of "fuzziness" and "happiness" within the bowels of all male-whores:
[AMm & ~(~M)] -> IMm
~[AMm & ~(~M)]So, it's not the case that Another Manly-man who is not non-Manly is such because I am not a Manly-man. I believe in this instance a double negation would imply an affirmative. Therefore, I show my manliness by affirming the manliness of another man. Wrong. That is invalid. You've allowed the sweetness of your bowels to be unequally yoked with your testicular strength.If you couldn't follow my line of thought, it's probably not your fault. . .Isn't that the way you prefer it? Just like every other insurmountable obstacle you've faced that's left you with no limbic system. Just like every other endeavor you've started but never completed. With my man-driven syllogism, I've only succeeded in showing you that your impotence is just the result of a depleted sperm count. You just need to trade in your air-tight panty liners for some free-wheelin' boxers.I love Jesus cuz He knows how to beat ass. He told us in Matthew 24:36-39 that the days prior to His coming will be just like the days of Noah, full of eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage. Their will be a general "peace on earth" prior to His coming and when He shows up He turns that "peace" into wrath for those who rebelled against His kingdom.
Jesus is creating a world where there is no pain, no suffering, no heartache. Just so He can take over this world. . .cuz they never expected it ;)
Whatsmore, the Bride gets to watch (participate in?) her King open up a can of bubbly whoop ass on all the enemies (see Isa 66:23-24, cf. Rev 7:17, and 21:4).Pro Rege (For the King),"When Christ ascended to be at the right hand of the Father in glory, it was God's way of proving that there is not one inch in space and one minute in time that Christ has not said of it, "I own it, its mine!" - Abraham Kuyper
| posted 01-09-2001 01:16 AM |
ok now *that* was funny. "i love jesus cuz he knows how to beat ass" should be on t-shirts.- j
|William Wallace II|
| posted 01-09-2001 09:23 AM |
We also need some bracelets and a praise song to round out the marketing campaign.
| posted 01-09-2001 02:09 PM |
I think it already is on plenty of Tshirts. I think there was an article in the Stranger about it a couple of years back.
| posted 01-09-2001 04:27 PM |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by xrizxomiz:
1) A question is posed (or a threat is made, whichever gets us to wherever we're going the fastest), such as: Am I a manly-man if I tell another manly-man that he's not non-manly enough? 2) Next, a painful syllogism is presented in order to kill whatever remains of "fuzziness" and "happiness" within the bowels of all male-whores:
[AMm & ~(~M)] -> IMm
~[AMm & ~(~M)]So, it's not the case that Another Manly-man who is not non-Manly is such because I am not a Manly-man. I believe in this instance a double negation would imply an affirmative. Therefore, I show my manliness by affirming the manliness of another man. Wrong. That is invalid.
What you're describing sounds a lot more like Wallace's sycophants who jump in periodically to repeat something he's already said, with a whole lot less style. As for me, I never had any interest in posturing as a "manly-man"; I rejected the category. In theory, a manly man is supposed to follow sundry precepts Wallace takes from the bible. In practice, observed in this topic, we have a different specimen. In high school, we called them "Jocks." Jocks and their ilk had their herd of hangers-on, fighting over crumbs and the extra seat in the Jock prom limo. So here.God Bless Jocks, thugs, and those who like to bloody each other at Pantera concerts. Or Korn or whatever. Just don't insist that everyone who wishes to follow Jesus must find a spot at the back of the herd.Our God is great. Jeremiah, Jacob, and other wussy men find favor with him. Manly men like Esau and Nimrod (a mighty hunter before the LORD) His soul hates. True, Jehu was a jock. David probably was to some extent. But then again, he says: "Blessed is he who has regard for the weak; the Lord delivers him in times of trouble." (Ps 41)If you are strong, or manly, or good at sports as a Christian, aren't you so for the sake of the weak?"Therefore, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong." I wish I was man enough not to fear insults, weaknesses, and persecutions.Low sperm count, eh? hmmm. I think the hearty reception of the testicle/homo humor by the jocks in this topic is a symptom of two things--A. The Jock, alpha-male thing doesn't work so well after high school. Solution? Buy an old thunderbird and fix it up. Eat some pork rinds in the solicitude of your own prefab suburban living room.B. White Male persecution complex. Well-documented in such movies as "Falling Down" and "Fight Club." Consumer-driven, cookie-cutter, aisle-9 version of reactionary masculinity to compensate for a lack of versatility in approaching the world.Signed,
A crotch-scratching, grunting, non-manly man.[This message has been edited by KZA (edited 01-09-2001).]
| posted 01-09-2001 11:05 PM |
originally posted by KZA."Our God is great. Jeremiah, Jacob, and other wussy men find favor with him. Manly men like Esau and Nimrod (a mighty hunter before the LORD)His soul hates."I'm sorry my friend but you have it all backwards. Esau was the wuss. Esau liked to hunt, he was a good hunter, and his father favored him because of the good meat he brought home. God despised him, god passed him up and granted his birthright to Jacob. He was honored by men but despised by the LORD. Esau traded away his birthright for a bowl of red stew! (Gen 25:30) How foolish was that! He was driven so much by his stomach that he gave away his most prized posession. What a wuss!Jacob on the other hand was a manly man. Gen 25:27 says "Jacob was a quiet man, staying among the tents." The Hebrew word translated quiet here is 'tam', which is translated elsewhere as 'perfect' and 'morally complete'. Jacob did not stay at home with mommy, Knit sweaters, and clean up the tents. The fact that he cooked good food only proves he was after the LORD's own heart because loves good grubbin. And i would guess that if Jacob and Esau went toe to toe Jacob would kick his ass! Why, well he wrestled with God all night till daybreak and God didn't win untill he resorted to a supernatural act of jacking up his hip. (Gen 32:24-26) Jacob was also a man of enourmous strength, he rolled away the stone from a well in Gen 29:10, something that usually required many shepards. And Jacob had God's blessing. He was a manly man.therfore, i don't think your argument has much biblical weight. Maybe you should check up on Nimrod and Jeremiah aswell.
| posted 01-10-2001 12:46 AM |
So which is it, Hopeful? Does "manly-man" simply mean "morally complete?" Or does it mean being able to kick ass and roll big heavy stones? You don't seem to be sure. The fact that you claim to know Hebrew isn't helping you any.If it wasn't for your Hebrew, I'd figure you were just stupid. I feel, well, my feelings are a little hurt. I don't think you respect me enough to read my post seriously, and yet what you wrote makes no sense at all. You use the term "manly" to mean one thing in the first paragraph and another in the next. The stuff about Nimrod is only a couple of verses, so I'll check myself on it here in front of you, okay?"Cush became the father of Nimrod; he was the first on earth to be a mighty man. He was a mighty hunter before the LORD; therefore it is said, 'Like Nimrod, a mighty hunter before the LORD.'" (Genesis 10)I think I was saying that Nimrod was a "manly man." Admittedly, the RSV says "Mighty man," but you'll grant it was close, right?It goes on to tell us that Nimrod built 7 cities. He was industrious, intelligent, charismatic, obviously. He also could kick ass--he was a mighty enough hunter before the Lord that they made up a saying in Israel about him. One commentator says that his "hunting" before the LORD was another way of saying that he terrified and oppressed other men. The Hebrew word for his name means "rebel," that is, a rebel before God. If you mean "powerful" or "macho" when you say manly, Nimrod was your "man." And yet inspired scripture calls him a rebel against God. I know God destroyed at least two or three of the cities he founded--Babel, Nineveh, and Resen. So Nimrod works as an example for the point I was making--manliness, machismo, human industry and strength--it's a joke to God, at best. Do I really have to quote all the verses that show our frailty, weakness, and depravity as the places at which God is willing to meet us? Thank God I am not a manly man! Otherwise I would never be aware of my need.What's my point? I think you made it for me when you were talking about Esau--what is highly regarded by men is detestable to God. It's because we are men--and therefore wicked--that we are so willing to believe that God loves it when we kick ass and assert our competence. But any strength we have, according to the flesh or the spirit, is because God is merciful and gracious.[This message has been edited by KZA (edited 01-10-2001).]
| posted 01-11-2001 12:56 PM |
Hiya Mr. World War II,I think you're very funny (not sure what this has to do with the Gospel).However, you have strong entertainment promise, have you ever considered stand up ?For whatever it's worth, i thank you for making me laugh.Cheers,Xavps: I'll refrain from making fun of you, you're entertaining and never claimed to be a serious Christian, and I, like you, am in it for the fun. Mocking serious people is a wholly underrated form of entertainment, mind you.
| posted 01-11-2001 05:18 PM |
KZA: >What you're describing sounds a lot more like Wallace's sycophants<
. . .sounds scary. Is it related at all to that twitching of the eyes I get after I've been studying for 8 hours straight?>who jump in periodically to repeat something he's already said, with a whole lot less style.< I try to be original but my style only begets the ordinary and the everyday. I'm just too secular to compete with the sacredness of others. I guess my home is here on earth with the other mundane men :(>As for me, I never had any interest in posturing as a "manly-man"<Point well taken. I don't think anyone on this list is confused about what your posturing as ;) >I rejected the category.<
. . .In practice as well as in thought?>In theory, a manly man is supposed to follow sundry precepts Wallace takes from the bible. In practice, observed in this topic, we have a different specimen. In high school, we called them "Jocks." Jocks and their ilk had their herd of hangers-on, fighting over crumbs and the extra seat in the Jock prom limo. So here.<Not sure what a "hangers-on" is? Probably just my desire to read syntactically correct sentences. If it's anything like "sychophants", then it sounds like I must've got mad-cow disease from that burger I had today.
BTW, didn't Jesus say something about the dogs eating crumbs off the table. . .
. . .and didn't Paul say something about fighting, running, and beating his body. Sounds pretty "Jockish" to me. . . you nazty dog you!>God Bless Jocks, thugs, and those who like to bloody each other at Pantera concerts. Or Korn or whatever.<Amen brother. Just don't forget the motherload of all metal bands. . .Slayer!!>Just don't insist that everyone who wishes to follow Jesus must find a spot at the back of the herd.<Me wee lil' brain seems to remember somethin' about the least in the kingdom of heaven will be. . .I follow Jesus' heard cuz I want to lead (How's that for a pithy lil' sayin'?)>Low sperm count, eh? hmmm. I think the hearty reception of the testicle/homo humor by the jocks in this topic is a symptom of two things--A. The Jock, alpha-male thing doesn't work so well after high school. Solution? Buy an old thunderbird and fix it up. Eat some pork rinds in the solicitude of your own prefab suburban living room.B. White Male persecution complex. Well-documented in such movies as "Falling Down" and "Fight Club." Consumer-driven, cookie-cutter, aisle-9 version of reactionary masculinity to compensate for a lack of versatility in approaching the world.<I would add one more. Well, maybe not. I think you've pretty much exhausted all the possibile symptoms for "teste/homo humor". I think I'm forced to go with 'B'.
1. I do feel very persecuted by white males, especially when they ware all those tattoos, have a hundred peircings, and use "dude" like a verb/noun/adjective/etc. ;)
2. Fight Club is my life's theme
3. I do plan on shopping at IKEA as soon as I get my driver's liscense and my mom starts giving me my allowance again
4. What's wrong with cookie-cutters?
5. Aisle-9? Don't you mean Babylon 5? Dude, you are trippin' dog. . .I only react against anti-masculinity which is a reaction against masculinity. Sorry bra, but I think I'm going to have to give you the Caeserian thumbs-down on this one. Your anti-man quasi-witty prose is just more food for the lion's mouth.>Signed,
A crotch-scratching, grunting, non-manly man.<Just be sure not to arouse that spiritual vagina of yours.Love and War,xriz[This message has been edited by xrizxomiz (edited 01-11-2001).][This message has been edited by xrizxomiz (edited 01-11-2001).][This message has been edited by xrizxomiz (edited 01-11-2001).][This message has been edited by xrizxomiz (edited 01-11-2001).]
| posted 01-12-2001 12:15 AM |
xris, braaaa!!!! buddy! where you bin brotha! s'all'm sayin! My hearts aches like the soles of my feet, souled out to the slavery of everyday life, soulless and numbed like my pink dripping eye!! Oh wretched life, how thy frisbee of pain whistles towards my head! Catch it xris before my blind eyes open on dumb hands!! Save me from german carnivals with there too high shorts, and too tight leggins with boots too brown and dirty to walk the roads without scorn from french twitting fiends!!!!
Shoutout to my bra xris, peace!
| posted 01-15-2001 12:06 PM |
KZA,Why exactly do you think Jacob was a wuss? My point may have not been crystal clear, but basically Jacob was not wuss. I said what i did about the Hebrew because the translation seems to make Jacob out to be a mamas boy who sits at home and knits with mom, grandma, and the rest of the girls. A common misconception that i felt needed clarification considering the fact you think he was a wuss."So Does manly man simply mean morally complete? Or does it mean being able to kick ass and roll big heavy stones?"It means both. A manly man is not an ass-hole jock, but he isn't a whining wuss either. The idea that every man has to be able to bench press 300lbs to be manly is also absurd. The 105 lb. close-hanger of a man need not press like Ray Lewis of the Baltimore Ravens. But there is no reason that a 105 lb weakling can't hold his own and be a man instead of cowardly putting his tail between his legs and crying foul when he should stand up and be a man.My beef with you is you called one of the patriarchs a wuss, which to me makes absolutely no sense and makes me wonder about you.[This message has been edited by hopeful (edited 01-15-2001).]
| posted 01-15-2001 03:39 PM |
I was pointed to this discussion by a friend and must admit that I’ve now spent the better part of a day reading and re-reading these posts. At the same time enthralled and offended (which was probably the point). On one hand I applaud the call to arms presented here, for too long young Christian men such as myself have been spoon-fed a doctrine of mediocrity and apathy. We are taught that it’s ok to be lukewarm in our faith because after all to be non-offensive is our goal. I’m tired of being told that laziness in the pursuit of holiness is ok and that my weakness should be coddled and sheltered rather than exposed to the light. For these reasons I applaud what WWII is attempting.My problem with all of this is in the delivery of the address. In the biblical instruction on how we are to admonish one another I fail to see abuse listed as a correct means. I understand that WWII posts are meant to be inflammatory and controversial. However, are we not supposed to be known by our love for one another? I realize that love is not always warm-fuzzies or good feelings. A true brother is not one who will coddle your weaknesses but one who will hold your feet to the fire. But at the same time our love is to be marked by gentleness and meekness…not abuse, ridicule and name-calling. So I guess I would hope that this new revolution would be one marked by men pursuing hard after holiness and that their mark would be strength of righteousness and gentleness of spirit. Not just chest pounding machismo and false bravado.TITUS: 3:2
To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.2nd timothy 2:24
And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
| posted 01-16-2001 10:48 PM |
quote:Dude, This is the funniest post on the list so far. You are insightful. Thanks for the cool thoughts.
| posted 01-17-2001 12:30 AM |
| posted 01-17-2001 11:14 PM |
According to the federal government 18 Billion dollars was paid in child support last year.This is the amount that was PAID. Imagine the amount that went unpaid. I bet it was problably more than the amount paid.
|William Wallace II|
| posted 01-18-2001 04:49 PM |
I have decided to read the dictionary and come up with new words that no one knows so that I can say things without people getting their undies in a bind. I am also suggesting that since we are building a new nation that we need our own language. The following are some suggestions and I would encourage your input to help create this language that we will now call Wallacisms:pussified - any man who has lost his rocks and completed the process of remaining biologically male but become female in all other waysmale lesbian - any man who thinks and acts like a woman because he thinks that makes him a better personlegion - the countless number of men who have become male lesbiansfeman - a woman who thinks and acts like a man because she believes it makes her equal to menwhacker - a man who is a porno freak and chronic masturbatorserial whacker - a man who uses women for sex and uses their bodies instead of his hand for his masturbationmanly man - any regenerate man who loves God and his neighbor and demonstrates it with grace guided practical living and rigorous theologyhalf a man - any man who takes a wife and does not serve as the financial and spiritual head of his home but believes the relationship is 50/50 and she should make half the money and do half of his job at homepitch a tent club - men who allow their wives to nag them so incessantly that they want to sleep on the roof of their own homea Bundy - any man who sees women as machines with parts and stalks them rock free - any man who attends a church with a woman pastormixed nuts - any man who claims Christ but is actively involved in homosexual activitykindling - any man who does not repent of his sin and receive God's grace in Christhomoerotic huddle - any men's group where the men cry inordantly and hug each other with deep affection feminism - the enemy of every man, every woman, every child, and God Almighty odd squad - the collection of people who comprise a singles ministryknuckleheadology - the seemingly profound but completely insane thinking that tends to fill the head of single young men who are avoiding taking a wife and having childrenrocks - the courage a man must have to be a manly manthe jar - that place where unmanly men store the rocks that they never wearClickers - lazy men who lay on the couch and watch too much televisionwandering willy - any man who commits adultery on his wifebibliophobe - any man who argues passionately for his point without ever using Scripture but likes to toss Jesus name around a lotartistesticularless - men who expect women to take care of them because they play guitar or paintMarty Stewart - any man who stays at home with his kids while his wife goes off to work to provide for his familyKing & Lord - JesusAdamite - any man who lets his wife make Satan the head of their home while he sits quiet, passive, and submissivelyCharlie Chump - any man who walks out on his own childrenLarry Limp - any man who refuses to serve his wife sexually in such a way as to make the Song of Songs sing againmomma's boy - any man who continually nestles on his momma's chest and wants a wife who will be his mommaThe Youth Pastor Yank - any man who expects his church to lead his kids to Christ and teach them about the Bible home - the most sacred part of a wife's anatomyMinni Me - a man's penisDobsonian - anything with words like self-esteem, self-love, self-actualization and the like instead of manly words like pridehenhouse - any church that is not governed solely by qualified men
[This message has been edited by William Wallace II (edited 01-18-2001).][This message has been edited by William Wallace II (edited 01-18-2001).]
| posted 01-18-2001 05:55 PM |
Kinda adds a new meaning to the phrase "Honey, I'm home!"Brilliantly done WWII...but I'm frustrated at why it came to be...
|Erocka N. Rolla|
| posted 01-18-2001 06:18 PM |
Absolutely frickin' gorgeous.I'm gonna use those forthwith. Serial whackers (and I know several "Christian" ones), beware.
| posted 01-19-2001 05:14 AM |
My beef with you is you called one of the patriarchs a wuss, which to me makes absolutely no sense and makes me wonder about you.[This message has been edited by hopeful (edited 01-15-2001).][/B][/QUOTE]************************************Wonder away. I'm not the first person who's called the guy that.Jacob showed wussy traits and manly traits, either way you want to define manly/wussy--if manly means "godly" or if manly means "macho." He wrestles God, and then he puts his wife and kids out in danger and hangs back. Very cowardly. He freaked out when his sons massacred Hamor and Shechem's whole clan, which was understandable, but he didn't care a whole lot about his violated daughter. Not exactly manly. And jacob wasn't always godly in any sense of the word. Jacob is also one of my favorite people in the bible. i relate to him. he's quite capable of being a coward, of cheating and stealing and running from a fight. He's tricky. But god is very gracious to him--that's why his story is so good.If you are 105 pounds, you will never make it as a tough man. You will never be able to swagger around, confident in your manliness; you probably won't be that well endowed; and if some guy who's tough and a jerk starts flirting with your girl, what are you really going to do about it? Either you'll lift a lot of weights and buy a big car to try to compensate, or you'll accept your weakness as how God made you and commit yourself to him. God doesn't despise the weak. This is not to say being weak is a virtue in itself (because you can always covet if you can't go out and take), or that a weak man can't be honorable, only that not everyone can be manly in the worldly sense of the word. And I think we should be brothers to those who are not.
| posted 01-19-2001 05:47 AM |
Not sure what a "hangers-on" is? Probably just my desire to read syntactically correct sentences. If it's anything like "sychophants", then it sounds like I must've got mad-cow disease from that burger I had today.
********************************I can't believe I spent time reading your syllogism, following your logic, and you couldn't even bother to figure out what "sycophant" means!? I mean, there's no dictionary for logic, but with a word all you have to do is open to the appropriate letter.But anyway, I didn't mean you so much as the others, but i suppose you could fall into the category if you really want. Since when, I wonder, does being a sycophant (which means, roughly, a suck-up, a follower, someone who goes around trumpeting someone else's ideas) make you a man? Like, as in, you (plural) don't have the brain to put your finger on the "pussification" process until Wallace points it out, nor the spine to complain until wallace paves the way--but now that he's done it, you all have a ton of courage to trample everyone on the site who disagrees. In what world is this "manliness?" Aha...in a fallen world, where people follow without really analyzing what they're following.I was personally hurt by the "spiritual vagina" reference, but then I found out that a whole bunch of women objected to the fact that their sex was being used as a slur. the weird thing is, I remember reading augustine's City of God, where he has to spend a considerable amount of time questioning whether at the resurrection, when the flesh becomes incorruptible, women will lose their femininity and become full fledged men. Maybe this is something we need to hash out in this section, since "spiritual vaginas" are weak and contemptible, and "spiritual penises" I assume, are pleasing and upright before the Lord.The really weird thing to me is how much I've always raged to my friends about the various feminist English professors I've had to put up with. I think men should lead. But why should men patronize? What intelligent woman wants to be subject to someone who doesn't respect her? And God help you if you're going to lead your family and you swallow everything you read about being a man uncritically.
| posted 01-19-2001 12:00 PM |
"The one who is slack in his work is brother to him who destroys."
"Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins"
"The sin of respectable people is seen in their flight from responsibily"
Dietrich BonhofferThat is a view of sin that is completely absent in our culture and church.
"He is a good person, he doesn't smoke, or drink or cuss or fight or rape or murder"
What about when he is 18 years old and he will not prepare himself to be a father, church elder, or a husband?
"Well, boys will be boys, right "
"At least he is not like one of those sinners that goes to bars and swears"Men flee from responsibility because of lack of masculinity. Masculinity is despised by men because they are hedonists and women because they are feminists. It this a vile sin just as rape and murder? Yes it is."That sin which you would save from slaughter will slaughter you"
| posted 01-19-2001 02:10 PM |
"knuckleheadology - the seemingly profound but completely insane thinking that tends to fill the head of single young men who are avoiding taking a wife and having children"Does this mean that not taking a wife is wrong; that a man's duty is to get married and have children? I need some clarification on this.
|William Wallace II|
| posted 01-19-2001 02:51 PM |
Proverbs 18:22 "He who finds a wife finds what is good and receives favor from the Lord."
The eastern concept of marriage that is dominant throughout the Old Testament is one in which the man prepares himself to be a husband and father, and then pursues a woman's father to win the approval to court her as his bride. The father of the bride is central to marriage and the young woman is supposed to respectfully submit to her father and he is to protect her chastity and guard her against potentially undesireable suitors like the young men who take girls to prom and put their hands down their dress, or worse still young men who prowl at singles groups hoping to mash on some young woman like a desperate junior high boy in heat. Therefore, it is imperative that a young woman have either her father or another man occupy that role of headship in her life to aid in the selection of her husband. If her father is absent or unsuited, it would be best for young women to invite an older man (i.e. a church elder, respectful man in their church, a believing close male relative etc.) to serve in that regard out of loving concern for her. Paul illustrated this principle with the topic of headcoverings in Corinthians wherein he essentially stated that women should always be under submission (first of their father and then of their husband) and demonstrate their submission in the culturally appropriate sign of such a submissive spirit with the wearing of a head covering. This transference of headship is symbolized in the Christian tradition of a father walking a woman down the aisle and then literally giving her away and transferring his headship to her husband. Therefore, a man cannot be a limp wristed coward waiting for a good woman to pursue him. He must not also casually date Christian women test-driving them to find one he really wants to buy. He should be prepared, responsible, forthright, and honorable.He must begin by being qualified to take a wife. The following list should help to begin the introspective process for single men of considering whether they are ready to take a wife and if not how much work they have to do.1. Are you a Christian who desires a Christian wife (II Corinthians 6:14)?
2. Do you work hard and make enough money to take care of a wife and child (I Timothy 5:8)?
3. Will you love the wife you take as Christ loves her (Ephesians 5:22-33)?
4. Will you accept the responsibility of headship and leadership of your wife and children (Colossians 3:18-21)?
5. Do you know your Bible well enough to serve as a pastor to your family and answer your wife's theological questions (I Corinthians 14:35)?
6. Do have sufficient self-control to be gentle and tender with a woman (I Peter 3:7)?
7. Do you have self control in regards to lusting after other women (Matthew 5:27-30)?
8. Will you be a one-woman man (I Timothy 3:2)?
9. Will you give your body to your wife to explore and enjoy sexually, in sum will you be any good in bed (I Corinthians 7:1-7)?
10. Will you keep your covenant to your wife for the duration of your life (I Corinthians 7:10-11)?
11. Are you ready to in every way sever the ties that bind you to your mom and dad (Genesis 2:24)?
12. Do you know that you do need a wife (Genessis 2:18)?
13. Do you want to be a dad with an exemplary family (I Timothy 3:5,12; Titus 1:6)?
14. Have you kept your appearance so you look good (Song of Songs 5:10)?
15. Will you enjoy your wife (Ecclesiastes 9:9)?
16. Do you like breasts (Proverbs 5:19)?
17. Are you actively involved in a solid local church and submitting to the elders/pastors there (Hebrews 13:17)?
18. Do you humbly submit to godly older men (I Peter 5:5)?
19. Do you endure discipline and hardship with courage and faith (Hebrews 12:7-11)?
20. Are you self-controlled (Titus 2:6)?
21. Do you embrace your youth as an opportunity to set an example to others of the power of God in a yielded life (I Timothy 4:12).
22. Do you watch your life and doctrine closely (I Timothy 4:16)?
23. Most importantly, do you gladly submit to Christ's complete authority over all of your life (I Corinthians 11:3)?In sum, husbands are told to love their wives, and wives are told to submit to and respect their husbands. The men must not love as psychologists tell them, but instead as Scripture does in some of the ways listed above. And, a man needs to tell a woman that his love is heartfelt, as well as shown practically in these ways. If a man does these things out of the power of God's grace alone then most every woman who has the Spirit of God within her submits and respects that man.Men, here is a secret, if you want a woman to be attracted to you, you must be attractive. If you want a woman to respect you, you must be the kind of man she can be proud of and speak highly of. In the Song of Songs the bride says "no wonder the maidens adore you." She knew that she got a good man, the kind that all the other women had admired and hoped for. Today, the problem is that there are too few men of nobility and desirability which forces the women in our churches to remain single, become independent and feministic (even if ever so slightly) and either settle for some half-a-man, or remain single indefinitely. It all rides or falls with the men.And, once a man is ready for a bride, he should then select a woman he has gotten to know in a causal way and request permission from her father (or other head) to court her as a potential spouse. More later...
|William Wallace II|
| posted 01-19-2001 02:52 PM |
Now for the second half of the equation, what a man should seek in a wife.
1. Seek a woman who is a Christian similarly devoted to God as you (II Corinthians 6:14).
2. Seek a woman who fears God (Proverbs 31:30).
3. Seek a woman desires to be sexually liberated and give her body to you to enjoy (I Corinthians 7:1-5).
4. Seek a woman you are sexually attracted to (Proverbs 5:15-19).
5. Seek a woman whose conduct speaks more loudly than her tongue (I Peter 3:1-6).
6. Seek a woman who is suited to be your helper (Genesis 2:18).
7. Seek a woman with a submissive spirit (Ephesians 5:22-24).
8. Seek a woman who is good with handling finances (Proverbs 31:10-31).
9. Seek a woman who will be a good mother (Proverbs 29:15).
10. Seek a woman who's desires are homeward (Proverbs 14:11, Titus 2:4-5).
11. Seek a woman who is kindhearted (Proverbs 11:16).
12. Seek a woman who is not a quarrelsome nag (Proverbs 21:9).
13. Seek a woman of noble character with a strong work ethic (Proverbs 31:10-31).
14. Seek a woman who is not flirtatious and flattering to other men (Proverbs 5:1-6).
15. Seek a woman who likes to dance naked before you (Song of Songs 6:13b-7:9).
16. Seek a woman who likes to be kissed by you (Song of Songs 1:1).
17. Seek a woman whose scent is sweetly erotic (Song of Songs 1:12).
18. Seek a woman who likes you to rest your head between her breasts (Song of Songs 1:13).
19. Seek a woman who will enjoy performing oral sex on you (Song of Songs 2:3).
20. Seek a woman who wants you to perform oral sex on her (Song of Songs 4:16-5:1).
21. Seek a woman who knows how to speak to you like a manly man (Song of Songs 5:10-16).
22. Seek a woman who is your friend (Song of Songs 5:16).
23. Seek a woman who can guide all her sexual desires solely to you and remain faithful (Song of Songs 4:12).
24.Seek a woman who has all her teeth (Song of Songs 6:6).
|William Wallace II|
| posted 01-19-2001 02:54 PM |
I Corinthians 7. Buckle up. Here we go.
The Corinthian church is jacked - getting drunk at communion, suing each other, affirming homosexuality, speaking in tongues like nutjobs, and one guy is even sleeping with his mom/mom-in-law and no one is the least bit disturbed. The entire letter Paul writes is in response to some questions they had sent to him. This makes it a bit tough for us to interpret since we have to construct from the answer what exactly the question was. But, chapter 7 of I Corinthians seems very clear in speaking about marital and sexual issues.Paul tells us that it is good for a man to be unmarried. But, Paul concedes that because of the hot running sex drive of many that marriage is the only thing that will keep the from sin. In these sections he seems to be addressing people who have already been very sexually active, have now come to Christ and don't think they'll be able to control themselves even for a short season.Paul then speaks to virgins in verse 25 and suggests that these people who are single and have demonstrated sexual self-control would be benefitted from considering remaining unmarried because of the great persecution in that day. Paul then goes on to say that to be married under the crisis of that day would cause one to face even greater hardship in being devoted to Christ. I would strongly suggest, then, that only under such rare circumstances should someone remain unmarried. It makes sense to try and remain single if you live in a place like Sudan or Turkey where being a courageous evangelist would most definitely bring you to be murdered for your faith. If you had a wife and children in some countries today they would be raped and you would be killed. Therefore, if you claim to be called to singleness then you are also called to frontline life and death ministry. This is the model of Paul's life. He was likely married, and it seems either his wife had died or left him upon his conversion and he remained single because of his ministry. Paul was beaten, stoned, shipwrecked, nearly starved to death and left for dead on numerous occassions. Under such circumstances it was good he did not have a wife and kids. Therefore, if you claim to be single we should see you living the most committed life to Christ of any child of God and expect you to be murdered. In the meantime your time and money should go directly to the cause of the gospel. If you tithe poorly, serve minimally, play lots of video games, consume hours of television and masturbate a lot like the average 20-something Christian male I would suggest you are not called to singleness, but you are calling yourself to selfishness. I am absolutely sick and tired of hearing guys tell me they are called to be single and then piss their life away doing nothing of significance and then claiming that they are like Jesus and Paul. Jesus, like Paul, died and knew he would so having a family would have been irresponsible. Also, it would have been a really tough gig for Jesus to find a woman to be equally yoked to since he was God. In Genesis, before sin enters the world, the man is told it is not good for him to be alone. So, God created the woman to be of help to him in his ministry. Under most circumstances men are better able to serve the gospel with a wife since she is differently gifted and called to empower and join with the man for God's glory. Most of the problems in our church and world relate to sexuality, selfishness, marriage, and childbearing and childrearing. A single guy is going to have a very limited ministry on these things, whereas a married man can better minister to men, women, and children while serving as a model. Lastly, the Scripture is clear that part of our ministry is to be fruitful and multiply. That not only are we to be selfish and consider our ministry, but to raise up generations of servants of the gospel to ensure that the work outlives us. Therefore, to view children as a burden to the work of the gospel is erroneous. Aren't you glad the apostle Paul, Augustine, Luther, Calvin, Spurgeon and the like had dads not devoted to celibacy?
| posted 01-19-2001 03:11 PM |
Thanks for the Corithians bit. That is what I was thinking about when I read your new word. I happen to be the person who burns with passion, who plans on getting married. Plus I beleive that any Christian man that wants to stay single is messed up in the head, but that is just my personal opinion. But I was wondering if you were calling all the men who remain celibant complete idiots to the Word of God. Do they not deserve the Manly Man award or something like that. Please excuse my grammar if I screw up. I kinda hate the English language. I prefer speaking in tounges b/c anything that comes out of your mouth God understands(sorry for the really crappy joke there).Here is my only self created word:
Kack-to hit someone
i.e. Boy I'm going to kack you upside the head.
Okay maybe that sucks. I'll just stop now.[This message has been edited by emo01 (edited 01-19-2001).]
| posted 01-20-2001 09:01 AM |
So Wallace, What do us guys who are burning with passion and preparing for marriage do in the meantime? You know passion is kind of hard to control. There is a fine line between dreaming and whacking. BTW I am glad that you have opened this issue up and are so straightforward and blunt about it. Most christian people can't deal with it but these things have got to be addressed
|William Wallace II|
| posted 01-20-2001 01:34 PM |
Good question.One, don't spend all your time with single people. Get some good married couple friends to observe and dialogue with. This is one of the biggest problems with segmented ministry in churches, married and unmarried people are separated.Two, spend some considerable time in Scripture about marital matters so that you know why, how, and what a wife and children are for. A good place to start may be in the Song of Songs, Ecclesiastes, and Proverbs.Three, some good books are helpful. On male sexuality I'd recommend "Fidelity" by Douglas Wilson. On male headship I'd suggest "Recovering Biblical Manhood & Womanhood" by John Piper. "The War on Boys" and "Fatherless In America" are great works by non-Christians.Four, be in a good solid church with qualified male elders who can have frank biblical discussions about male issues without blushing.
| posted 01-20-2001 02:05 PM |
Another book on male headship that I'd recommend is Men & Women: Equal Yet Different by Alexander Strauch