Tuesday, December 30, 2014

2-5-2008 spiritual warfare Part 3 part 4 commentary 3 on the details and the trends of recovered memories and other fads

It's one thing to note in general how much Driscoll leveraged recovered memory tropes, 1980s era occult dedication folklore, and other somewhat infamous Reagan-era fads that have largely been debunked by psychological research and to a lesser degree even theological discussions.

It's another to get some sense of the practical implications of such a web of counseling approaches in the context of a church as a social/political system.  Think of it this way, Driscoll described how in these demon trials he'd learn the worst individual and family dirt about individual members.  That's not exactly no leverage should a day ever come in which one might contest a policy decision, is it?

It's also hard to overstate the significance of one of the most obvious points, that unless Driscoll or other pastors conducting demon trials were to eventually conclude otherwise, the people who would go to see counseling for demonic issues would be identified as Christians.

Wenatchee The Hatchet here suggests that a secular psychologist "might" propose that the recurring pattern Driscoll describes even in the anecdotes transcribed earlier in this series would revolve around the individual grappling with some part of themselves they can't integrate into their sense of self.  In Driscoll's accounts these predominantly circles around sexuality, sexual history, or drug use as a coping mechanism for other types of trauma. 

It's getting a bit late in the evening so Wenatchee The Hatchet isn't going to linger too long on the particulars of the stories. Instead it seems worth noting how slippery some of the accounts can sometimes feel in terms of voice.  When Driscoll uses generic plural pronouns was he referencing the counselee as the subject, the alleged demon(s) speaking through the counselee, both or all the above? 

In light of Driscoll's own accounts of how most of the time demonization for the Christian comes about because of unrepented of footholds involving sins (like, say, bitterness) this further highlights a question of whether Driscoll himself has ever been the counselee in a demon trial such as he described in his February 2008 session.  For as often as he has insisted that everyone be completely honest about all the worst things about their individual lives and family histories, Mark Driscoll himself has been pretty general in describing his personal history and the history of his family.  It's as though when the shoe is on the other foot the less said the better. 

It's one thing to say rather generally the Driscoll line is full of alcoholics and physically violent men and another to address anything more particular.  Since Driscoll had gone so far as to say that whole families can be literally and figuratively demonized by besetting generational sins this would seem like something that would have come up more than it ever has in the history of Mars Hill so far as Wenatchee The Hatchet can recall.  Not that that's an invitation for people to comment here, in case people are wondering.  There can be good reasons family histories are kept undiscussed in many settings.

But it's not untoward to suggest after so many years as a public figure in ministry who has required that counselees tell him everything that Driscoll himself keep in mind that one day there may be an accounting of his life and times.

There are about 15 more minutes left to transcribe, which may finally get transcribed later in the week.  Wenatchee's hoping to knock that out by the end of this upcoming weekend if time and resources permit.  The idea at the moment is to get into 2015 and have the warfare series largely be a wrap on discussing the history of Mars Hill at this blog.  And if the leaders past and present would just stop, you know, trying to reinvent themselves as though the last three to seven years didn't happen, that would make it so much easier.

A rather hasty summation, between the figurative and literal demonization of opposition or doubt about the executive leadership on the one hand, and a propensity to leverage largely debunked pop psychology tropes from the 1980s with individual counselees on the other, it would seem that using spiritual warfare as a narrative in which to quell dissent was not a particularly creative method but one that may well have gotten the job done.  Rather than attempt to stick to discussing the theology as theology (though the problems with it are, well, legion) Wenatchee The Hatchet will try to defer to folks with a bit more formal theological expertise to explain that if they like.  What we've tried to have available for people to read is a way to understand the historical and potential political significance of the 2008 seminar. 

For instance, secular readers could just imagine what a powerful priming effect this teaching could have on people, and Christians could appreciate this as well.  Wouldn't it be possible for someone who had never before experienced anything that could be construed as a significant spiritual attack until after the February 2008 spiritual warfare material been discussed?  Driscoll's discussion was lengthy and yet largely short on truly practical considerations and littered with some vivid anecdotes that did not necessarily spell out much that was truly "practical".  If anything by sharing a few stories about how members or attenders learned in counseling sessions with Driscoll how people who may often have not been part of Mars Hill had some role in harming them demonically that could prime members or attenders to see Mars Hill as a refuge from the threat of people who might be family who had not, in fact, actually harmed them in the way pastors at Mars Hill may have proposed took place. 

One can only guess as to the long-term impact saturating a biblical counseling department or leadership culture like Mars Hill with Driscoll's teaching could have had on how pastors handled church discipline or counseling.  If Driscoll was suggesting the leaders were going a bit too easy on members and not accounting enough for the influence of Satan then, well ...

2-5-2008 spiritual warfare Part 3 part 4 commentary 2, noting the kinds of dirty in the 08 warfare session and the 07 scotland sermon

...
I dealt with one girl, years ago. She was repeatedly sexually abused as a child and then raped and a couple of the older men (I think it was an uncle and a grandpa) who would molest, after they were done with her they would say, this is what they'd tell her, "You're a dirty girl. That's why I make you do dirty things." She grew up, she was a very perverted girl, very sexually active, way out of control and I was talking to her and I asked the spirit. She had all kinds of supernatural issues and clairvoyance and she was really in trouble. I asked, I said, "What is the most effective lie or accusation you tell her?" And they said, "You're a dirty girl, I said, so you do dirty things." I said, "Well Jesus died for all your sins and he cleanses you from all your unrighteousness. That's a lie. You're not a dirty girl and you don't need to do dirty things. You're not a dirty girl and you don't need to do dirty things but if you believe that lie and accusation you're going to live as a dirty girl who does dirty things."

The story Driscoll related in 2008 about the girl who is described above isn't placed in any particular time or place in the history of Mars Hill or Mark Driscoll's ministry.

At the risk of relying on someone else's transcription from the Scotland sermon of 2007
http://peterlumpkins.typepad.com/files/driscoll-scotland-sermon-copypdf.pdf
about 23:05
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8sNVDyW-ws&feature=youtu.be


―Like an apple tree among the trees of the forest,‖ she says, ―is my lover among the young men. I delight to sit in his shade and his fruit is sweet to my taste.‖ What is she talking about? Oral sex on her husband. That as he stands, she likes to be beneath him and his taste is sweet. It is a euphemism for oral sex, in your Bible. The Jews wouldn‘t even let men read this until they were married or thirty. Now you know why. You‘ve got Jewish boys under the blankets at night with a candle. [Laughter from audience.] Men, I am glad to report to you that oral sex is biblical. Amen? [Minimal response from audience.] No, you can do better than that. [Laughter from audience] The wife performing oral sex on the husband is biblical. God‘s men said, Amen. Ladies, your husbands appreciate oral sex. They do. So, serve them, love them well. It‘s biblical. Right here. We have a verse. The fruit of her husband is sweet to her taste and she delights to be beneath

Lumpkins' failure (most likely by inclination) to transcribe the actual story Driscoll shared failed to capture the wording Driscoll used in his 2007 Scotland sermon.  It's worth recounting in connection to the other story about a dirty girl because it's a way to frame the contrasting use of "dirty" by Driscoll. 

The story of Driscoll telling a married woman in the church to provide oral sex to her husband as though commanded directly by Jesus goes as follows:

24:17
I'll tell you a story if you don't tell anyone else of a man who started attending our church because of oral sex. Right? So many women go to church. In your country it's sixty or seventy percent. "My husband won't come to church. He doesn't have any interest in the things of God. He doesn't understand why church would apply to him." We had a woman like that in our church. She became a Christian. Her husband was not a Christian. He hated the church, wanted nothing to do with the church. She kept browbeating him about Jesus. "You need to get saved. You're gonna burn in hell."

He had no interest in that. 

And so, finally, I was teaching a class on sex and she said, "Oh, so oral sex on a husband is what a wife is supposed to do?" I said, "Yes." She said, "My husband's always wanted that but I've refused him." I went to 1 Peter 3. I said, "The Bible says that if your husband is not a Christian that you are to win him over with deeds of kindness." I said, "So go home and tell your husband that you were in a Bible study today and that God has convicted you of sin.  And repent and go perform oral sex on your husband and tell him that Jesus, Jesus Christ commands you to do so." The next week the man showed up at church. He came up to me, he said, "You know, this is a really good church." That handing out tracts on the street thing, there's a better way to see revival, I assure you of that.

Driscoll would go on to say many husbands don't know how to please their wives sexually because they aren't told what to do
...

28:29
--you say, "Won't that make me dirty?" No, it'll make you a good wife, and ladies, let me assure you of this, if you think you're being dirty he's pretty happy.

While the way in which Driscoll made the statement may have been misconstrued or misrepresented by Lumpkins' failure to thoroughly transcribe the story could be significant, it may still be worth noting that the Scotland sermon was just a few months before the 2008 warfare session.  The Scotland sermon was given about a month and a half after the terminations of Petry and Meyer and shortly after, if memory serves, the bylaws drafted by Jamie Munson were voted through by the elders of Mars Hill.
sadf

2-5-2008 spiritual warfare Part 3 part 4 commentary 1, some observations about always sending demons to the pit, Jesus didn't.


When convicted there will be one-way traffic only from the demon to the pit. You're not gonna go bother anyone else at any time, especially those in the room and our families. You're not gonna enter another person, you're not gonna hassle other people. Worst thing you can do is cast a demon out and not send it to the pit. You cast a demon out it just goes to, I dunno, one of your kids. Somebody else.

Ironically, not only did Driscoll butcher the detail about how "Legion" was the name the demoniac gave to himself and not the name Jesus gave to one or any of the demons possessing the demonic, there's another problem. 

As you can read and hear for yourself, Driscoll advised that you always send demons to the pit because otherwise they go to someone else. 

Well, if that's so paramount you would think Jesus himself would have always done it, right?

Nope.

Mark 5:1-20
Matthew 8:30-32

Look them up at your leisure. In neither account do the demons get sent to the pit but into pigs.  In the Markan account the demons beg that they not be sent out of the country (ESV)

2-5-2008 spiritual warfare Part 3 part 4: schematic of trial and anecdotes from case studies

http://castroller.com/podcasts/MarsHillChurch3/3711825
Spiritual Warfare
February 5, 2008
Pastor Mark Driscoll
Christus Victor (Part 3)


THE GROUND RULES
25:02

And then I establish the ground rules. Can you imagine walking into a trial, say there's somebody who's just evil, and they were in a trial. Can you imagine if there were no rules, no bailif, no judge, right? They weren't shackled up, can you imagine what a trial would look like?
It would be insane. People who do demonic counseling and don't say, "Holy Spirit's bailif, you know, Jesus is the judge, I'm here as attorney doing questioning," people who don't set it up as a trial, that's where it goes nuts. This is literally, I know pastors--this is where the 110 pound lady picks up the 300 pound Baptist pastor and throws him across the office and he's laying on his back going, "Apparently, I did something wrong." Yeah, ya did. It's the same as bringing in a mass murderer for trial no bailiff, no shackles, no cop,
no gun, no judge, you're just gonna talk to him. Well it's gonna get crazy. If the authority's from Jesus we don't let Satan and demons show off. We don't. We don't let `em boast, brag, hurt people, intimidate people.  It's a trial. The goal is to get the truth, sentence them, and send them away. That's all. 


So I establish the ground rules. I just literally say this: in the name of the Lord Jesus, who is Christ (I'll be using the personal pronoun `we' because I stand with, and then I name the person--and I always have someone there with me who's a godly witness. If they're married and they have a good spouse, I have their spouse there.  Dear friend of theirs, fellow pastor, one or two people as witnesses.) I stand with them as their brother in Jesus Christ and since the Holy Spirit lives in us both we command you in the name and authority of the one true God who rules as Father, Son and Spirit, you're an unwanted intruder who is going to have to leave upon command."

And then I lay down the ground rules, right? Court is now in session, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, right? Test the spirits, here's the ground rules--you remember those guys, in the, remember the seven sons of Sceva in the New Testament? No ground rules, they walk and "Hey, are you a demon?" and they then get, like, beat up bloodied running for their life naked. You don't want to be that guy, or gal.
You don't wanna be that. Lay down rules. Before you start talking to a demon lay down some rules by the authority of God through Jesus Christ and enforced by the Holy Spirit.


In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ we establish authority over Satan, sin and demons delegated to us by the Lord Jesus Christ, that I am in Christ, Christ is in me, that all that is under his feet is under my feet. He says, "I have given you authority to trample on scorpions and sermons (that's demons, Luke)".  I bind the strong man. Jesus talks about the strong man, whatever demon is in the highest ranking authority. Demons are organized like military, there are those who lead and there are those who follow. I don't want to waste my time going after every buck private. I want to know who's in charge and I want to get this over with. Some people I know don't do this and they end up going for HOURS, ten, twelve, fourteen hour meetings. No way, Satan loves to show off. He'll send up all the buck privates for trial first. You're exhausted, worn out and confused by the time you even get to a general.

"I command that you convey your answers to the person and they will convey your answers to me. You will not speak to me because you're on trial and under the authority delegated to me by the Lord Jesus Christ." To engage a demon directly, that elicits their pride. You must speak to the person, the person serves as translator, they tell you what they're hearing or seeing. If Satan's been lying, accusing, condemning them they're listening to him all the time, or I should say a demon, they're listening him all the time anyways so may as well have them tell you what they're hearing and the answers that are being conveyed. Think of it like a translator.

"I command that you not change your authority structure, hide, duplicate your identity or change your name."
If you don't do this they'll send up one demon; he'll say, "My name's Hank"; he'll send up another demon who'll say, "My name's Hank"; and you'll think, "Oh, we--it's failing. They're not going." Well, that's cuz they're changing their name. They'll invert their authority structure and say I command the one who's in charge and they'll invert their authority structure and just like in a war, if you capture a bunch of POWs, you say "Who's the general?" Well they put the general hat on a buck private because nobody cares if he takes one and all of a sudden the general's dressed up like a buck private hoping not to get, you know, brought to trial. No inverting the authority structure, no changing the names, no alteration of the truth.

There will be no profanity. I don't want to hear `em curse God and Jesus this and Jesus that. No way. I don't wanna do that.
You will answer every question directed to you clearly, concisely, immediately, completely, truthfully.  Saying I want an answer right now
and I want the truth. I don't want you to wait for ten hours and try and exhaust me and wear me down.


29:55
I command you not have any outside help or reinforcement during this trial. I don't need more demons showing up in my office to join in on the party. We're not doing that.


I command that the answers you give stand as truth before the white throne of God almighty. Some will say you don't ask any questions of the demon because they're liars and they lie and I say, "I know they lie but when they stand before the white throne of God mentioned in Revelation, all truth will be known and I check it by that." I'll show you how that's done.

When convicted there will be one-way traffic only from the demon to the pit. You're not gonna go bother anyone else at any time, especially those in the room and our families. You're not gonna enter another person, you're not gonna hassle other people. Worst thing you can do is cast a demon out and not send it to the pit. You cast a demon out it just goes to, I dunno, one of your kids. Somebody else.

Bind you by any name you give and name you if needed. Some demons in the Bible, we don't know their names. Some, we do. Jesus calls one "Legion". We know Satan's name. I ask `em "What is your name?" If they don't they don't tell me I'll give `em a name. Sometimes it's a stall tactic to make this thing last forever.

... I commanded you to speak only which can be used against you. I don't want to hear about all the stuff you've done, and how many generations you've been at work, and how many children you've molested, and how many women you've raped, how many men you've turned into addicts, and how many people you've gotten to kill themselves, I don't want to hear your boasting, just your condemnation. I just wanna know what I need to know so I can sentence you, that's all. And my goal in knowing this is not any other purpose than for the counselee to know this is a real demon, it's really been at work, here's all the bad things he said, done. I shouldn't say "he", it. I think they're gender neutral, they're not male or female. They may manifest as male or female but they're spirits. They don't have the anatomical structure that we do. I just want the person to know what's been going on so that they don't ever mess around with a demon again.

I bind you by the ground rules we laid down. Command there be control of the mind, confusion of the mind, tongue or the body and that the person will maintain complete self-control and they won't undergo any harm. I don't want their eyes rolling back in their head, I don't want their voice changing. I don't want their mind confused. Sometimes I'll tell people, "Okay (in the middle of it) here, read this psalm.  [They] say, "I can't even see it. I can't see." And then they go blind. They can't hear things. They go deaf. Get rid of all of that with ground rules. Just all stall tactics. Again, imagine having a trial with no rules, no bailiff and no shackles. Craziness.

32:27
You'll take all of your associates and all of their collective works with you. So if I get the demon who is in charage I want all the associate demons working with them and all of their works and effects to go, meaning if you made `em sick, take the sickness. If you gave them some sort of chronic ailment, rather, take it with you. I command you to take it all with you.


And I ask the Holy Spirit. You don't command the Holy Spirit, you lay down the ground rules and command the demon, you don't command the Holy Spirit to do anything, he's God. You ask him to rule over all the spirits, force them to cooperate according to the ground rules, and punish any who seek to disobey. So I lay down the ground rules after sharing the Gospel explaining to the person what we're gonna do.

That means we tell `em we're gonna see if demons are working in your life. And we're gonna have a trial. We're gonna do 1 John 4. We're gonna test the spirits. We're gonna do it by Ephesians 6. We're gonna use faith and prayer and the Bible and Jesus.  This isn't gonna be crazy or funky. I'm gonna ask you questions. You're gonna tell me the answers. We're gonna confess sin, repent of it, pray and get this junk outta your life. We're just gonna use the gospel.


I then make declarations of truth. We declare the following as the truth before the white throne, that's the judgment seat of the Lord God almight:
1. Luke 8:18-20 we claim protection from and authority over Satan and demons. Jesus says "I have given you authority over Satan and demons."
2. We claim our position in Christ and all things that are under Christ's authority are under our authority, Ephesians 1:18-28. Sometimes
I'll just read these verses and just explain them, that Christ is over all and that I am seated with Christ and so it is under me as well.  That's where Paul the Corinthians that Christians will even judge the what? The angels, he says. So in judging demons we're not doing anything we weren't made to do. We are going to judge the angels in the end. Perfectly fine to judge a few in the middle as well.


And we claim our victory in the Lord Jesus Christ. That's Colossians 2:13-15.  That he disarmed the powers, the demons that were at war against us. He took away our sin and he has crushed Satan and demons and Jesus' victory is ours.

Then I ask them this, and this comes out of their homework: give me the two or three primary areas that are most troubling. If you want to deal with one thing, two things, three things, what the big thing you wanna get rid of that's killing ya? What's the place we start? I start with the big issue rather than the little issue so that we can get off to a good start but they're not exhausted. We build some momentum.
That they see what we are doing works.


I then ask them to confess sins and cancel ground and command leaving one at a time. `s all before we start, "How did you open the door?" proverbially speaking?  "Well, it was I committed adultery then after that I started having nightmares."
"Well, guess what?  Probably a connection there, huh?  Probably opened the door with adultery. Have you ever really repented of that to Jesus and asked him to forgive you?"
"Not really."
"Well let's do that right now. Let's stop right now and have you repent of that sin, ask Jesus to forgive you. He died.  Receive forgiveness."

Let's get--cuz, see, Satan and demons, with a believer, in addition to external torment and such, most of what they have is what we've given them by opening the door through sin.
"Well then, confess it is a sin.  Let's kick `em out, lock the door but you gotta straighten this out with Jesus. You gotta repent."
So a good chunk of time is just spent on repentence of particular sin. It's all it is. Getting rid of those handholds and footholds.

36:00
I then ask them a series of questions. This is where we start, number ten. I'll usually check with ancestral sin. I'm looking at their past.


Now if they come from ten generations of third degree Masons I'm startin' there. If they're grandma was into witchcraft and their mama was into witchcraft and they have some demonic issues it shouldn't be shocking to think that this has been an issue in their family for a while.


I know one family where incest was just part of the family. They actually had very intricate rules to control incest. The grandfathers and uncles could molest little girls but daddies couldn't and you could only do that once they hit the age of ten. You couldn't molest any child before that. I get these complicated rules that have been passed down for generations for the sexual abuse of the children. You're like, this, your struggle here, your temptations, your issues, they have generational lineage.


There are whole family lines that are just demonically inspired. You ever wonder why, in the Old Testament, God will occasionally tell his people, "When you go to war against that nation kill ALL of them. Don't let one of them live." People say, "Oh, oh that's terrible." Not if that whole line is demonized. Not if that whole line of people exists for the express purpose of fighting God and killing his people. The issue is either you get rid of them or they get rid of you. Satan is inspiring them to destroy you and you gotta get rid of them. Satan DOES work through family lines. There are family lines like the Herods who, just from one generation to the next, they're trying to kill Jesus and his people. Some of the family fights in Genesis, they continue all the way to this day. Not saying every person in the family line is demonized, but it seems like Satan likes to work through family lines, ancestral sin.

To begin then, I'll find the area of deepest root, for the deepest root. If it's ancestral I start there and I have `em pray after me. Much of our time is spent praying. I have `em pray something like this: Lord Jesus, if there are any spirits who have anything to do with me (body, soul or spirit) because of ancestral sin or whatever the sin is (sexual sin, adultery, drugs, whatever it is) I ask that you forgive this sin and cancel any ground that may have been held against me.

And I have them repeat after me: If there are any demons working in me in the area of (whatever it is--sex, drugs, alcohol, you know, night terrors, clairvoyance, visions, pedophilia, whatever it is, witchcraft, whatever) we bind all of you together, along with all your work and effects and command you to come forward.

I then say we all, now, this is the declaration for the trial, we now command that that spirit holding highest authority of all those bound and brought forward in the area of (whatever the issue is) to step forward alone. We put a hedge of thorns (this is Jesus' language) around you, above you, below you. You're not to be interfered with by anyone. That's what I'm looking for, here's the big issue, I want that spirit who's in charge (other spirits working under it), I want to deal with the boss. I don't wanna deal with everybody. When I get rid of the boss I want everybody and all their works to go with him. I say, "Now I command that spirit holding highest authority of all those bound and brought forward" and then I always ask it this way, "In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ (and he's the judge. I'm just the, I'm the cross-examining attorney in this trial. He's the judge.) In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ ... " and then I start asking questions.

What is your name? First question
... I tell `em, "If you don't hear anything don't say anything. Don't make anything up." But I'll look at the person ... "Do you hear anything?" Okay, what is it? It's amazing, they'll just go and tell me a name. They tell me a name I write it down. They don't tell me a name I'll ask again, pray, ask again, if I don't get anything, move on. Not making anything up, just double checking. Just double checking.


40:00
In saying this, some of you right now are hearing things in your own mind. This is what happens. Some of you hear things all the time.
Is it Satan? I don't know. What is he saying? What's your name? Tell me the name. Write it down.


Next question, then I ask, "Will that stand as truth before the white throne of the Lord God almighty?" When we stand before Jesus will that be what is said? And if they don't give me a name, like I had one person and I said, you know, "In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ what is your name?" here's what they heard, "I'm not tellin`" [slight laughter in the audience].  I said, "That's okay, I'm gonna name you. This is a stall tactic. I'll call you whatever I'm gonna call you and we'll move on." You're responded to this name or I've given you this name, we bind you that name. Upon command, you'll go to the pit bound by that name with all of your works and effects, all of your associates, and all of their works and effects as well.

Next question question I'll ask, "When did you come to them?" And you know what's amazing to me with this, most of the time I get year, month, date and sometimes hour. It is unbelievably precise. If it's ancestral it'll be in the womb or birth. If it's at some point in life--I mean I've heard things like, (and I'm, like, making up the day) "Well on March 27th of 1983 they were seven years old and when their uncle molested them that's when I came." Hmm. They'll just, the person'll just say this and I'll say, "Okay, when were you born?" We work backward, make sure it's true. "I was born in 1980 and they say they came 1987." "Yeah" "March 23, is that when your uncle molested you?" "Uh, uncle molested me, that sounds right, yeah. Yeah, it was at my cousin's birthday party and his birthday's March 23. That's true."

You'll get that kind of detail. [pause] you get that kind of detail. [WtH, Driscoll talked in such a swift slur here that this is probably an approximation compared to other sections and paragraphs.]


"Will that stand as truth before the white throne of the Lord God Almighty? Yes or no?" That's how I ask it. They'll say, "Yes." I heard "yes".  "No" I heard "no". Okay, then I go after it, what's the truth?

You hear weird things, too. Things that you wouldn't have expected. Some of `em you don't expect, like (I'm working out of stories trying not to reveal people but like) talking to one person, said, "I came to him this date, this year, they were this age." I said, "Okay, where were they? What were they doing?" I'll start asking follow up questions. "Well it was when they were at the neighbors house playing with so-and-so." Hmm.  I'll ask them the story of the person that one person asked. So you're playing at so-and-so's house. What happened?  "Well, yeah, so-and-so, their whole family was into Wicca and their mom ran a New Age bookstore and I'd go to their house and play and then, you know, as kids we started taking our clothes off and touching one another and then they brought me to the Wiccan store, the New Age bookstore, and the mom started teaching us how to do seances and clairvoyant and how to call down spirits and to do white magic (as if there were good demons)." 
Really?
Yeah, that definitely would be opening the door, for sure.

You start hearing very specific dark details of in people's lives and sometimes you'll hear things that they were too young to remember.
And so rather than just believing them you gotta do your homework to make sure they're true and so I'll send people. Go ask your grandpa 
when you were one and a half if he molested you. Get the truth. How did the door get open? What happened? What happened?


43:54
Other people, they'd say, I remember one person, the door got opened, it was drugs. They'd go into this altered state of consciousness and they thought they were having these crazy trips. It was very spiritual. They were involved in Rastafarianism for a while. Things like that, things like that.


"When did you come?" I want to know what opened the door. Why do I want to know that? I want to know so when we kick this person out they keep that door shut. Like, look, if it was sex or drugs or witchcraft or, you know, whatever it was that opened the door, let's shut the door and let's never open that door again. I need `em to know how they got into trouble so that they can stay out of it.

I then ask, "What works were you commissioned to do?" What were you trying to do? Sometimes it's "I came to make `em sick. I came to get `em to kill themselves. I came to ruin their family. I came to get them to be drug addicts. I came to get them to molest children." All this kinda crap. "I came to get them to rape people. I was on a mission and I had a job and my job was do something to them get them to become destructive in some way." Check, will that stand as truth before the Lord God Almighty? I'm taking notes the whole time.

And this is a counseling session, guys. I'm sitting there asking questions and the people are answering them. That's all that's going on. If you walk by my office you would see nothing but me and a person having a conversation. That's it.

I say, then I ask, "By what means had you hoped to destroy them?" and I hear the most grievous parts of people's lives.
"Well, you know, I wanted their uncle to molest them so then they'd be depressed and commit suicide."
"Is that true? Did your uncle molest you?"
"Yes"
"Have you tried to kill yourself?"
"Well, yes."
"What do you think about when you're trying to kill yourself?"
"When I try to kill myself I think about my uncle molesting me."
"Well, that's demonic."


"Well, I wanted them to drink themselves to death and just become a total sexual pervert and get a venereal disease and die." That's them. 
"Well, do you have a pattern in your life of getting drunk and waking up with people you don't know?"
"Yes."
"Well. That was a plan. That was a tactic. You're enemy is working on you. He's baiting your hook of flesh. His goal is to destroy you. This is the plan."

You'll hear how the enemy has sought to destroy them.

"What habitual lives have you told them?"  This is super helpful, I mean, I make a list. I start hearing, "You're fat, you're stupid, you're ugly, you're worthless. You should die." All of that, Revelation 12:10 accusation stuff, it just starts flowing out. It's crazy how it flows out. I'll ask, "What's the most powerful lie or accusation you've used against them?" and the big one comes and, almost invariably, the person then just starts bawling. They just start weeping. Sometimes it's things they've never told anyone but it's just absolutely destroyed them and they realize it came from Satan.

I dealt with one girl, years ago. She was repeatedly sexually abused as a child and then raped and a couple of the older men (I think it was an uncle and a grandpa) who would molest, after they were done with her they would say, this is what they'd tell her, "You're a dirty girl. That's why I make you do dirty things." She grew up, she was a very perverted girl, very sexually active, way out of control and I was talking to her and I asked the spirit. She had all kinds of supernatural issues and clairvoyance and she was really in trouble. I asked, I said, "What is the most effective lie or accusation you tell her?" And they said, "You're a dirty girl, I said, so you do dirty things." I said, "Well Jesus died for all your sins and he cleanses you from all your unrighteousness. That's a lie. You're not a dirty girl and you don't need to do dirty things. You're not a dirty girl and you don't need to do dirty things but if you believe that lie and accusation you're going to live as a dirty girl who does dirty things."

Ed Stetzer at Christianity Today, "Some churches should die and stay dead" but the subheader says "How replanting could be the best answer for a dying church "

http://www.christianitytoday.com/edstetzer/2014/december/some-churches-should-die-and-stay-dead.html

What the headline gaveth the sub-header tooketh away.

Monday, December 29, 2014

Becky Garrison spots a Greg Kappas as a director of Learning for Living. The same Kappas involved in the earlier years of Mars Hill?

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2014/12/29/the-title-of-mark-driscolls-new-non-profit-is-trademarked-by-two-other-organizations/

...
23632 Highway 99, Suite F517, Edmonds, WA 98026 USA

There better be a physical address you can find for the place or you'd best not give a blessed cent.  You should wait to give until after the 501(c)3 status is vetted and approved and there's also a physical address to contact. 


After all ... as discussed in the following blog post
http://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2014/11/some-questions-about-future-of-assets.html

http://www.sos.wa.gov/corps/search_detail.aspx?ubi=603199549
LASTING LEGACY LLC

UBI Number603199549
CategoryLLC
Active/InactiveActive
State Of IncorporationWA
WA Filing Date04/17/2012
Expiration Date04/30/2015


Agent NameCT CORPORATION SYSTEM
Address505 UNION AVE SE STE120
CityOLYMPIA
StateWA
ZIP98501


Governing Persons

TitleNameAddress
Member,ManagerDRISCOLL , MARK23632 HIGHWAY 99 STE F441
EDMONDS , WA 98026
MemberDRISCOLL , GRACE23632 HIGHWAY 99 STE F441
EDMONDS , WA 98026-9211
private mailboxes aren't even remotely good at indicating where someone or something (as an organization) actually exists.

Over at her tumblr space Becky Garrison has uncovered the listed directors of the Learning for Living non-profit whose 501(c)3 status awaits confirmation:

http://praisethelord-passtheammunition.tumblr.com/post/106527895299/update-re-mark-driscolls-learning-for-living

Of particular note is ...
Directors
Mark Driscoll
Greg Kappas
Tope Koleoso

 
It would be interesting to confirm if the Greg Kappas mentioned is the same one Driscoll mentioned in "seasons of grace"
http://web.archive.org/web/20001210191200/http://www.marshill.fm/who/our_history.htm
...
In the second season, Grace and I began attending Antioch Bible Church in Kirkland, where we volunteered our time working with their college ministry. We then located in Seattle to be closer to students and after a few months I was brought on staff as a part-time intern to oversee the college group. I served in that position for nearly two years and learned a great deal in my first position of ministry leadership in a church. At that time I met Mike Gunn who had moved from a pastorate in Southern California to begin a ministry to athletes at the University of Washington. I also met Lief Moi, a local radio show host, who came in to teach a class for us. These two men and their wives and children became like family and together we began dreaming about the possibility of planting an urban church for an emerging postmodern generation in one of the least churched cities in the U.S. We began praying, studying the scriptures, reading a great deal on postmodernity, and dialoging together to formulate a philosophy of ministry appropriate for our context. Helping us formulate our launch plan was Dr. Greg Kappas, who graciously mentored us and provided wise insight and counsel.

There's another place in which Driscoll mentioned a Kappas, quoted by Wenatchee The Hatchet.
http://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2014/06/a-question-about-narrative-of-real.html


The key is to make a sincere and devoted attempt to take with you other strong and capable men who are well respected and potential elders with you. And, getting them some pulpit time if/when they are capable and trustworthy also helps in perception.
 For example, when I started I had Mike Gunn and Lief Moi with me. And, they have been two of the richest blessings God has ever given me in ministry. Both have theological education, lots of ministry experience, lots of pulpit experience, are older and have outstanding families. And, I had worked with them for a few years at our sending church and they were very close friends and godly men with wives of great character. So, from the beginning it was clear that we were working together and that they were also to be respected and followed. They have, to their credit, called me face to face on my sins and pride. And, each time they have they were right. They have never done this in public and have always been my biggest encouragement and covered my back at every turn. Because of their age they could have made my life difficult and been divisive. But, this has never ever been an issue. I am all for a team type concept, but the hard part is getting real biblical elders who qualify for their office with families of particular honor. Today, I would have to say that our elders are a tremendous honor and safety zone for me to work from who have faithfully guided our church through some very difficult places and I thank God for each of the men every day. Also, their wives are outstanding mothers and teachers of women who have been outstanding allies and partners in our work.

In addition, strong capable men who also have their own churches are good to sit under the authority of, particulalry for a young man. For example, Dr. Greg Kappas was a church planting coach to me and a tremendous help, encouragement, and advocate. He had planted his own churches, taught church planting at Western Seminary, and helped oversee a regional network of church planters. To this day Greg remains like a brother and his counsel has always been much needed and appreciated. And, my father in law Gib Martin planted his church over 35 years ago and remains there as the lead pastor and is also a great help and cheerleader who has been very very supportive and available. And, Dr. David Nicholas with the Spanish River Church and now Acts 29 has at least as much insight into planting as any man I have ever met and he and I are very very close and in contact weekly as I am with Gib and Greg. In addition, I've had the privilege of meeting thousands of other pastors across the U.S. and gleaning from their experience and wisdom.  Overall, I must admit I have been very very blessed by God. My life shows His grace in some very clear ways and the men He has called me into relationships with have really been life changing.

markdriscoll.org on a hiatus? UPDATE: it looks like it's back up

We're sorry, but something went wrong.

We've been notified about this issue and we'll take a look at it shortly.



It might just be that without the formal dissolution being in place yet the markdriscoll.org website is down pending the formal dissolution of MH and everything can go up once that's official.  "If" that's the case then 2015 will see the site and associated materials go up.

Meanwhile, the most probable outcome (assuming Driscoll will never actually back out of ministry as a career) is that Driscoll and his associated allies are transitioning to Texas for a re-launch of Driscollian ministry from Texas. Ever since Driscoll shook hands with T. D. Jakes and signaled that maybe Joel Osteen wasn't so bad after all a more TBN tilted Driscoll would seem to be at least a possibility.  In light of the ideas promulgated in his 2008 spiritual warfare session more TBN-friendly ideas may have been taking root as far back as seven years ago.

Or the website may go up again before today ends. 

UPDATE
12-29-2014
07.03PM

And it looks like it came back up.

Sunday, December 28, 2014

2-5-2008 spiritual warfare Part 3 part 3 commentary 3: Driscoll to pastors at MH "some of you, when you're counseling, you will see things". They could have Driscoll's discernment, too.


Some of you, when you're counseling, you will see things. You will literally get the discernment to see things. I can't even explain it. It doesn't happen all the time.

In light of the rest that Driscoll said about "i see things" for himself, the real powder keg in the history of Mars Hill over the last seven years would be what might have transpired when pastors who were under Mark Driscoll's spiritual authority extrapolated from Driscoll's own teaching on spiritual warfare that only did Driscoll have spiritual superpowers to discern the dirt on others but that they also had this divinely granted super-power as well. This might not play out in presuming something was amiss but in presuming something wasn't amiss that ultimately was. 

A couple of years ago, in the wake of the Andrew disciplinary situation making headlines, Wenatchee The Hatchet wrote this post:

http://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2012/01/bht-are-we-seeing-pride-going-before.html

While Ruth Graham and associated editors thought the blog post was critical of Mark Driscoll's leadership style they probably overlooked a couple of paragraphs:

You may find yourself in a position where a counseling pastor assumes the worst about you and your associates; gives advice that fractures relationship; and then when asked to simply explain the basis for his counsel stonewalls you.  You might discover that some vital piece of information that could have ameliorated a longstanding conflict was not brought to your attention because some pastors decided you just didn't need to know something that made all the difference in the world toward a reconciled relationship because it happened to come from some people who decided to leave the church. If they left the church that meant they were only after control. 

Then you might have to decide if you had to take the risk of going against that counsel and finding someone else to step in and help seek some reconciliation after a pastor or two have decided that's not on the table.  And if you do that, God willing, you'll find some of those folks have a change of heart and are sorry about the earlier advice and glad that reconciliation happened.  If you haven't figured out that I wasn't speaking hypothetically I might as well say I was not speaking hypothetically in this paragraph and the one before it.

All things considered, Wenatchee The Hatchet could have chosen to be less genteel and restrained in criticizing the competence and good will of Mars Hill "biblical counseling" than has actually been posted to this blog.

However, rather than attempt to dredge up the names of pastors who would go on to become notorious within Mars Hill circles for their hard-headed and ham-fisted counseling approach (which is why comments are closed already) it seemed more important to bring everything back to the spiritual warfare session from February 2008 in which Mark Driscoll told guys in leadership "some of you, when you're counseling, you will see things."

2-5-2008 spiritual warfare Part 3 part 3 commentary 2: "I see things" but did the things Driscoll saw ever lead to arrests?

...
On occasion I see things. I see things. Like I was meeting with one person, and they didn't know this but they were abused when they were a child and I said, "When you were a child, you were abused. This person did this to you, physically touched you this way." They said, "How do you know?" I said, "I don't know, it's like I got a TV right here and I'm seeing it." They said, "No, that never happened." I said, "Go ask them. Go ask if they actually did what I think they did and I see that they did."  They went and asked this person, "When I was a little kid did you do this?" and the person said, "Yeah [slowly], but you were only like a year or two old. How do you remember that?" They said, "Well, Pastor Mark told me." I'm not a guru. I'm not a freak. I don't talk about this. If I did talk about it everybody'd want to meet with me and I'd end up like one of those guys on TV, but some of you have this visual ability to see things.

...


Sometimes your counselee, they will see things. I found this with people, I'm, okay,-like, "I'm gonna ask the demon questions, you tell me what they say."  They don't say anything. I say, "What do you hear?" and they say, "Nothing, but I'm seeing stuff."
"What, oh, oh. What's that?"
"I'm seeing, you know, when I was little, my grandpa molested me. I didn't know that."


I said, "Well, let's not assume it's true. Go ask your grandpa." Grandpa says, "Yeah [slowly], when you were little I molested you." Grandpa was assuming they'd be too young to remember so he'd only molest grandkids up until a certain age. But they saw it. Supernatural. It's a whole other realm. It's like the Matrix. You can take the blue pill. You can take the red pill.  You can go into this whole other world and that's the way it works.

There's a subtle yet obvious contrast that seems evident in these two anecdotes.  When the first person said "that never happened" in response to Driscoll's alleged discernment, the story ends with the counselee going and getting confirmation straight from the abuser that what Driscoll saw really happened.  It's as though in Mark Driscoll's world sexual abusers of children all remember what they did and immediately admit to whatever they did to people who were too young to even be able to remember what was done to them.

Did these visions of long-ago memories fall well beyond any statutes of limitation for arrests?  Given the nature of what things Driscoll has claimed to be able to see, if there was any credibility to the visions, some of them seem like they should have led to actual arrests and yet there's never been any indication something like that has happened.

Of course given the cases that did go to court over recovered memories and the monetary losses that happened to the counselors who staked their reputations on cases they couldn't back up in court maybe the last thing Mark Driscoll would have wanted to do would be to have any of his claims to spiritual discernment required to become relevant testimony in a court hearing.  But if it's all true and he's got the witnesses ... why not?  What's there to lose?

After all, not everything Driscoll claimed to have seen via discernment was even something from the past:

Upon occasion when I get up to preach I see, just like a [makes "whif" sound] screen in front of me, I'll see somebody get raped or abused and I'll track `em down and say, "Look, I had this vision, let me tell you about it." All true.  One I had, I was sitting in my office at the old Earl building.  This gal walks by, nice gal, member of the church. This was when the church was small.  And there just like a TV was there and I saw the night before her husband threw her up against the wall, had her by the throat, was physically violent with her and she said, "That's it. I'm telling the pastor." And he said, "If you do, I'll kill you." He was a very physically abusive man. She was walking by and I just saw it. Just like a TV.  I said, "Hey! come here for a sec. ... Last night did your husband throw you against the wall and have you by the throat, physically assault you and tell you if you told anyone he would kill you?" She just starts bawling. She says, "How did you know?" I said, "Jesus told me." I call the guy on the phone, "Hey, I need you to come to the office." Didn't give him any clue. [He] comes in. I said, "What did you do to your wife last night?  Why'd you this? Why'd you throw her against the wall?" And he gets very angry, they're sitting on the couch, he says, "Why did you tell him?"  I said, "She didn't, Jesus did." Jesus did. 

Wenatchee The Hatchet is of the opinion that it would be stupid to invite a man suspected of being a physically abusive husband to meet and then play "gotcha" with him in a meeting including the man's wife and NOT expect him to blame the wife even after you've invoked some divinely granted oracle.  What critics of Mark Driscoll's pornovision stories may have forgotten, in some cases, to address is that not all the stories were of sexual abuse.  Some involved physical violence and in at least one case the domestic violence was something Driscoll claimed he was shown the night after the incident. 

Whatever may have taken place or not taken place in response to Driscoll's claims to divinely given insight into events and people, the most potentially harmful thing from Driscoll's talk of "i see things" to Mars Hill elders in 2008 wasn't what he was saying he was able to do but what he told his audience of pastors they might be able to do.

2-5-2008 spiritual warfare Part 3 part 3 commentary 1, getting the "i see things" out of the way, leveraging recovered memories & the possible political significance of "i see things" in the wake of the 2007 firings.

This is a web of topics about which Wenatchee The Hatchet has more than a passing interest.  Transitioning out of Pentecostalism had a lot to do with a set of changing positions Wenatchee had about eschatology, pneumatology and certain fads in the early 1990s.  One of the shifts was discovering that tons of Protestants were not premillennial dispensationalists or futurists on the subject of Revelation in particular and the apocalyptic genre in genre.  Another shift was in moving away from the "second blessing" approach to pneumatology that has remained prevalent in Pentecostal and charismatic circles.  Yet another shift had to do with rejecting the frenzy of both the spiritual warfare fad and the healing of memories Christian appropriation of the recovered memory counseling fad that was disastrously prevalent in the Reagan years around the time another fad of Satanism fears was also riding high.  For those who have mountains of patience for the mountain of previous writing Wenatchee The Hatchet has done on this set of topics ... :

http://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2010/05/healing-of-memories-and-recovered.html
http://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2011/12/mark-driscoll-i-see-things.html

The short version is that Driscoll shared enough cases of people who he claimed he saw or who saw themselves molested as children, at ages so young all credible brain research suggests long-term memories are not generally able to form yet, that it's difficult to take Driscoll's counseling approach as credible.  Even in the early 1990s there were evangelicals and fundamentalists who expressed reservations about the recovered memory approach.  How could you know those memories weren't just fleshly fallible things?  Worse yet, how could a Christian be sure that a recovered memory might not be a demonic lie planted in the mind of an unsuspecting believer who had been suckered by some psychologist?  You may get the basic idea.

What was alarming about the 2008 warfare session when I heard it shortly after it was made was that it sounded like Driscoll had simply taken up and assimilated recovered memory tropes and crazy stuff like Rebecca Brown MD stuff for spiritual warfare, the stuff that inspired me to leave Pentecostalism, and yet it was here being promulgated to leaders within Mars Hill.  Having been a bit on the fence and unsure what was accurate about the controversial firings and having been upset about what seemed to be the fiscal mistake of dumping a million and a half into a piece of real estate we couldn't turn into Ballard 2.0 it was the 2008 spiritual warfare series Driscoll gave that, once I heard it, was the nail in the coffin for formal membership renewal. If THIS stuff was how Driscoll was teaching Mars Hill pastors to counsel people then there was no legitimate reason to voluntarily submit to this kind of thing.  In one case Driscoll managed to hit the recovered memory trope of someone dedicated in an occult ritual as an infant they couldn't remember happening

I've seen children dedicated in occult groups, and demons come upon them as an infant by invitation and I wasn't present for any of it but I've seen it, visibly.

Way to get ever debunked 1980s era pop psychology fad of note into one single-sentence narrative there.

But it isn't always a recovered memory.  Take this story that Driscoll seems to have gotten some mileage out of.  USUALLY it seems he's witnessing sexual molestations or rapes and it could seem as though many of the events were present-tense replays of long-ago events.  But there's this:

Upon occasion when I get up to preach I see, just like a [makes "whif" sound] screen in front of me, I'll see somebody get raped or abused and I'll track `em down and say, "Look, I had this vision, let me tell you about it." All true.  One I had, I was sitting in my office at the old Earl building.  This gal walks by, nice gal, member of the church. This was when the church was small.  And there just like a TV was there and I saw the night before her husband threw her up against the wall, had her by the throat, was physically violent with her and she said, "That's it. I'm telling the pastor." And he said, "If you do, I'll kill you." He was a very physically abusive man. She was walking by and I just saw it. Just like a TV.  I said, "Hey! come here for a sec. ... Last night did your husband throw you against the wall and have you by the throat, physically assault you and tell you if you told anyone he would kill you?" She just starts bawling. She says, "How did you know?" I said, "Jesus told me." I call the guy on the phone, "Hey, I need you to come to the office." Didn't give him any clue. [He] comes in. I said, "What did you do to your wife last night?  Why'd you this? Why'd you throw her against the wall?" And he gets very angry, they're sitting on the couch, he says, "Why did you tell him?"  I said, "She didn't, Jesus did." Jesus did. 

Whether or not the story happened as Driscoll recounted it would depend on the two anonymous alleged parties saying that's exactly how it played out.  They can opt to speak up if they wish. 

But Wenatchee The Hatchet has been aiming to discuss this sprawling session not just as some doctrinal survey but as a speech made by Mark Driscoll to the leadership culture in early 2008 in the wake of the controversial firings.  There's a political subtext that may need to be borne in mind.  It wasn't 100% accurate or anything but sometimes Driscoll would see things, the sins of people in the church.  Couple this with Driscoll's warning that there was "a demonic" lie and couple it with "I see things" and Driscoll was making an implicit case that could be interpreted across the leadership culture as follows:

1) doubts about the executive leadership (Driscoll and the other EEs) is basically demonic
2) Mark Driscoll has divinely given powers to read people's proverbial mail and witness their sins or sins against them
3) since Christians can actually be demonized one could not assume that even members or long-time deacons were necessarily even Christians and if they were sincerely Christians they could still be demonized.

It could be construed as Driscoll saying, "I'm the executive elder with the divinely appointed calling and I have super-powers from God so if you question what I say God's leading us into you're being demonic and I may be given insight into all the stuff needed to take you down."

Many people have wondered why for so many years no one in the leadership culture thought to speak up about what Mark Driscoll was saying and doing.  If you take the 2008 spiritual warfare session as a whole, the sweep of Driscoll's session might provide more than just a few clues. 

2-5-2008 spiritual warfare Part 3 part 3: explaining counselee participation and the "i see things" aside.

http://castroller.com/podcasts/MarsHillChurch3/3711825
Spiritual Warfare
February 5, 2008
Pastor Mark Driscoll
Christus Victor (Part 3)


18:09
I explain the difference between demonic oppression (that's attacks and accusations and vain regrets); demonic occupation (that's internal influence); demonic possession (that's only for a non-Christian).


Number four, I explain their participation.
1. Our authority is in Christ. We don't have any authority over Satan and demons but through Jesus.

2. I tell them, "You gotta tell me the whole truth." If there's something you did and you're not gonna tell me, or there's something you're hearing or seeing and you're not gonna tell me, I can't help you if I don't know what's really going on here.

3. Tell me everything you hear no matter how odd it may seem. People hear things all the time. They hear accusations, vain regrets, lies, and I'll ask questions to the demon and then I'll tell them, "Tell me what you hear and if it sounds crazy, that's okay. Let me interpret the data."  Sometimes they're like, "I can't tell you, that's crazy." Tell me. Sometimes they'll say, "I can't, it's embarrassing." Tell me. Just tell me what you're getting. Tell me what you're hearing.

4. Tell me everything you see no matter how odd it may seem. Some people actually see things. This may be gift of discernment.

On occasion I see things. I see things. Like I was meeting with one person, and they didn't know this but they were abused when they were a child and I said, "When you were a child, you were abused. This person did this to you, physically touched you this way." They said, "How do you know?" I said, "I don't know, it's like I got a TV right here and I'm seeing it." They said, "No, that never happened." I said, "Go ask them. Go ask if they actually did what I think they did and I see that they did."  They went and asked this person, "When I was a little kid did you do this?" and the person said, "Yeah [slowly], but you were only like a year or two old. How do you remember that?" They said, "Well, Pastor Mark told me." I'm not a guru. I'm not a freak. I don't talk about this. If I did talk about it everybody'd want to meet with me and I'd end up like one of those guys on TV, but some of you have this visual ability to see things.

20:13
There was one woman I dealt with, she never told her husband that she had committed adultery on him early in the relationship. I said:


"You know (she was sitting there with her husband), you know I think the root of all this is Satan has a foothold in your life because you never told your husband about that really tall blond guy that you met at the bar. And then you went back to the hotel, and you laid on your back, and you undressed yourself, and he climbed on top of you, and you had sex with him, and snuggled up with him for a while, and deep down in your heart (even though you had just met him) you desired him because (secretly) he is the fantasy body type."

I said:
"You remember that place, it was that cheap hotel with that certain colored bedspread. You did it--you had sex with the light on because you weren't ashamed and you wanted him to see you and you wanted to see him."

She's just looking at me, like ...

I said, "You know, it was about ten years ago." I see everything.
She looks at her husband.  He says, "Is that true?" She says, "Yeah. He was 6'2", blonde hair, blue eyes. Yeah."

Some of you, when you're counseling, you will see things. You will literally get the discernment to see things. I can't even explain it. It doesn't happen all the time.

Sometimes your counselee, they will see things. I found this with people, I'm, okay,-like, "I'm gonna ask the demon questions, you tell me what they say."  They don't say anything. I say, "What do you hear?" and they say, "Nothing, but I'm seeing stuff."
"What, oh, oh. What's that?"
"I'm seeing, you know, when I was little, my grandpa molested me. I didn't know that."


I said, "Well, let's not assume it's true. Go ask your grandpa." Grandpa says, "Yeah [slowly], when you were little I molested you." Grandpa was assuming they'd be too young to remember so he'd only molest grandkids up until a certain age. But they saw it. Supernatural. It's a whole other realm. It's like the Matrix. You can take the blue pill. You can take the red pill.  You can go into this whole other world and that's the way it works.

So I say tell me everything you hear, tell me everything you see and sometimes I see things, too. I see things, too.  I've seen women raped.

I've seen children molested. I've seen people abused. I've seen people beaten. I've seen horrible things done. Horrible things done.

I've seen children dedicated in occult groups, and demons come upon them as an infant by invitation and I wasn't present for any of it but I've seen it, visibly.

Upon occasion when I get up to preach I see, just like a [makes "whif" sound] screen in front of me, I'll see somebody get raped or abused and I'll track `em down and say, "Look, I had this vision, let me tell you about it." All true.  One I had, I was sitting in my office at the old Earl building.  This gal walks by, nice gal, member of the church. This was when the church was small.  And there just like a TV was there and I saw the night before her husband threw her up against the wall, had her by the throat, was physically violent with her and she said, "That's it. I'm telling the pastor." And he said, "If you do, I'll kill you." He was a very physically abusive man. She was walking by and I just saw it. Just like a TV.  I said, "Hey! come here for a sec. ... Last night did your husband throw you against the wall and have you by the throat, physically assault you and tell you if you told anyone he would kill you?" She just starts bawling. She says, "How did you know?" I said, "Jesus told me." I call the guy on the phone, "Hey, I need you to come to the office." Didn't give him any clue. [He] comes in. I said, "What did you do to your wife last night?  Why'd you this? Why'd you throw her against the wall?" And he gets very angry, they're sitting on the couch, he says, "Why did you tell him?"  I said, "She didn't, Jesus did." Jesus did. 

There are people who are hyper-spiritual total freaks. They make stuff up.  They hear from demons. They pretend to have insight and discernment and there are some people who have real gift of discernment, and I'm not saying I'm 100% always right with it, but some of you are gonna have gift of discernment and you need to, you need to grow to learn in the use of that gift. Sometimes people will hear things. Sometimes people will see things.

24:23
And I tell them as well that pride and fear will hinder our progress. Pride meaning, "Yeah! We're gonna kick some demon tail today." Fear being, "Oh my gosh, I'm terrified." No, Jesus is big. He'll take care of ya. You'll be fine.

Number five [see the four numerals earlier]
5. I explain confession and canceling of sin. Say, look, we sin. We need to confess it to Jesus [and] be forgiven. What that does, that takes away the footholds of the enemy. And if you keep sinning and don't repent it's like you're opening up foothold and handhold and foothold and handhold. Repentance is where they go away. It's where they go away.

2-5-2008 spiritual warfare Part 3 part 2 commentary 4 "Lots of people love to use the devil as their escape clause and I won't let `em. ... when you sin and don't repent ... giving footholds

... I explain the world, the flesh, and the devil, kinda like I did with you. You got three ways the enemy comes at you--the world (temptation externally), the flesh (sinful response internally), before we talk about the devil let's talk about your personal sin, let's talk about your own repentance, your own moral responsibility.  Where has your flesh fed the world? Where have you sinned against God? What things do you need to repent of? What changes do you need to make? Let's not blame everything on the devil like Eve did in Genesis. Right? Her answer was "the devil made me do it."
Lots of people love to use the devil as their escape clause and I won't let `em. I'll talk about footholds and handholds again, you know, when you sin and you don't repent and you're living in sin and rebelling and believing lies and accusations you're giving your enemy footholds, he's making more ground.

Well, the woman's response was "the serpent tricked me", which even Mark Driscoll invoked as a way to explain why it seemed women were more gullible about some spiritual things.  Yet here Driscoll transforms Eve's response into a "devil made me do it" excuse.  Eve's defense could be construed as the "I didn't know what I was doing was actually wrong", couldn't it?  If so, then by extension the same could potentially be said about that explanation.

Driscoll has preached this to others but has he understood its implications for himself.  How many footholds did he give the enemy by resenting his wife about a lack of sex; by being bitter about it?  Did Driscoll give any footholds along the way in being sloppy about citation or are demonic footholds restricted to sex, drugs and rock n roll rather than the use of money and power?  Driscoll has never attempted to blame the devil for anything he's said or done that Wenatchee The Hatchet is aware of.  Given what Driscoll said in 2008, he'll never be able to use that escape clause for any sins or ethical lapses he may ever be found responsible for.  As Wenatchee The Hatchet has been documenting for a while now, when Driscoll's whole story is assessed by the criteria he has used to counsel and judge others, it can seem as though there's evidence from Driscoll's own legacy of preaching and teaching to ask whether he couldn't be the subject of one of his own demon trials.  Whatever the case might turn out to be, his past counsel would be that nobody cut him the slack of a "devil made me do it" or "I didn't know" type of excuse.

2-5-2008 spiritual warfare Part 3 part 2 commentary 3: don't let the demons talk but have them mediated by the person they're influencing? Is that a distinction without a difference in the end?

...
In any good trial you need ground rules, a bailiff to enforce them, bring in the person, get the truth, sentence them, condemn them, that's all we're talking about. It's a trial. It's a trial and the worst thing you can do is let a demon take over a person. I've seen it on a few occasions. I've seen people try and kill themselves, they were just sitting my office just talking. [makes a "whif" sound] voice changes, appearance changes, bodily posture changes.  I've seen little, tiny women demonstrate full man masculine voices, superhuman strength. I've seen things levitate in my office. Crazy stuff. You don't want that and I'll tell you that right now.

...
Some of you guys, you may have seen a guy, Bob Larson is his name, and he does this kinda crazy weird stuff on TV where people, if it's true (who knows it is), they appear to manifest full demonic control and people show up and they're, "Oh, that's amazing. That's cool."  No, no, no  Satan's proud. He's arrogant. He loves to show off. He loves to be demonstrating power. Don't let him do that. I don't speak directly to the demon. I'll explain what I do do in a moment. I speak to the person and then the demon answers them. In that way it's more like a translator. right? If someone, let's say they're someone who didn't speak in a language that I knew, and there was somebody there who was bilingual, I would have that person speak to the translator and then tell me. 

That's how we do it. I'll ask the person, I'll ask questions, they'll get it cuz it's a trial, they'll get an answer, they'll hear it or see it, and then they'll tell me. The other way is to speak directly to the demon but the only way the demon can speak back to me, then, is to take over and control that person's whole body and I don't want that to happen. I want them to be self controlled [and] alert. I want them to know what the enemy's been doing. I want them to be aware. And if they're already hearing vain regrets, accusations, lies, voices [then] the enemy's talking to them all the time anyways so they just need to learn to interpret that that's not the voice of the Lord and then communicate that to me.

It would seem as though there was a bit of trial and error in Driscoll arriving at the conclusion to not let the demons answer directly ... but if the demons had to take control of the demonized person in order to speak then how does this hold up?

Let's backtrack a bit, if demons are considered fallen angels and angels get speeches in the Old Testament then doesn't it seem ridiculous for Driscoll to assert that demons (i.e. fallen angels) can only answer direct questions through the humans they are tormenting?  There's no indication any of this was the case in any of the gospels or in the book of Acts, is there? 

Driscoll asks whether it's possible to even know if the Bob Larson stuff was true. Folks have written about Larson plenty, and a more recent article discusses Larson's exorcisms-via-Skype

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/02/06/a-failed-televangelist-exorcised-my-demons-over-skype.html

While Driscoll expressed reservations to fellow leaders of Mars Hill whether the stuff that happened on Larson's scene was real, comparable questions could be presented for Driscoll's own accounts, couldn't they?  Who's willing to publicly testify on behalf of the stuff Mark Driscoll's said he's seen in counseling sessions?  One of his personal assistants?  Former pastors of Mars Hill? Recipients of demonic trial counseling? 

And while we're still on the subject of Satans or demons needing a human host to speak at all, did the evangelists mention any need for Satan to be embodied in a possessed person to tempt Jesus in the wilderness?

2-5-2008 spiritual warfare Part 3 part 2 commentary 2 on the Bible and demons and Driscoll's omission of intertestamental literature.


What I do then in explaining this to them, I tell them, "Look, if you wanna know more about the Bible and what it says about Satan and demons here's what the Bible says."  I give them a list. I send this to them as a pdf. I go from Genesis to Revelation. I just give them all the chapters in the Bible that talk about Satan and demons and all the verses. And some folks who are neatniks they'll just go through the Bible and highlight all the verses and read it for themselves. That's totally fine. I also give them a summary of places they can read if they want to get the highlights.

This will admittedly seem to be a pedantic point that only theologians and biblical scholars might care about but Driscoll tends to be what some would call a Biblicist, only taking seriously what he can consider to come straight out of the Bible. 

But even in Jude the allusions to the books of Enoch were legion enough there were some questions about whether to canonize those books alongside Jude since the author of Jude made a point of quoting them.  Driscoll has adopted without any apparent critical engagement a number of standard interpretive glosses on Isaiah and Ezekiel as referring to Satan that were actually medieval era accretions in the Western church (whether the Eastern Orthodox also took the light-bearer and Tyre passages as oracles regarding Satan could be fielded by Orthodox lurkers if they like).  As Wenatchee The Hatchet has discussed at some length in the past Mark Driscoll's would be Bible-only approach hasn't accounted for either intertestamental literature or later medieval glosses on texts that he presents as strictly addressing the subject of Satan rather than as oracles with political and military significance prior to the existence of Jesus and the rise of early Christianity.

This is more of a general observation that will be non-news to scholars and theologians in general but that lay readers (and Wenatchee is no more than a moderately read layperson) may benefit from.

If you'd like to read up on the history of Christian thought in the West about the devil go grab all the books by Jeffrey Burton Russell in his sweeping series on the subject.  They're great reads.  If you want to read a bit more from a textual scholarly than a history of religion perspective than Suzan Garrett's books The Demise of the Devil and The Temptation of Jesus in Mark's Gospel would be handy references.  Check the spelling for Garrett, though. 

2-5-2008 spiritual warfare Part 3 part 2 commentary 1 Driscoll wouldn't presume even deacons were Christians but stopped short of pastoral suspicion, in spite of the recent firings of 2007


The first thing I do is "Tell me everything and read your Bible so you have an understanding of what we're talking about."

Moving on to page 8, here's what I do then. First, I share the Gospel with them and make sure they're a Christian. Do you love Jesus? Have you repented of your sin? Do you know, do you understand that Jesus' death was in your place for your sin? Do you have personal faith in the Lord Jesus alone?  I make sure they're a Christian. I don't assume anything. I don't care if they're a member of the church, I don't care if they're a DEACON in the church. I wanna make sure they're a Christian and sometimes I've been surprised. Some people, they don't really love Jesus. They don't really know him. So, first things first, they gotta be a Christian and you share the Gospel.

Driscoll stopped short of saying "pastor in the church" but it's not entirely clear why, seeing as he'd explained earlier in Part 1 about how false teachers, false pastors, false apostles and false evangelists abounded.  But why wouldn't he have made an assessment like that? 

Well ... perhaps that would raise an indelicate question about Mark Driscoll's own spiritual discernment and discernment of character. 

For instance, Bent Meyer was fired for questioning the eldership and for not respecting spiritual authority.  But who actively recruited Bent Meyer to be a pastor at Mars Hill to begin with?  None other than Mark Driscoll himself. 

Confessions of a Reformission Rev
Mark Driscoll, Zondervan 2006
copyright 2006 by Mark Driscoll
ISBN-13: 978-0-310-27016-4
ISBN-10:0-310-2-7016-2
page 151

To make these transitions, I needed to hand much of my work load to my elders and deacons so that I could continue to concentrate on the future of expansion of our church.  In some ways I longed for this day because it meant the weight of the church would be off my shoulders and shared with many leaders. In other ways I lamented not being able to invest in every young couple, experience the joy of officiating at so many weddings, or know everything that was going on in the church.

I asked our newest and oldest elder, Bent, to take over the counseling load that I had been carrying. [emphasis added] He was the first person to join our church who had gray hair, and he and Filipino wife, Joanne, were like rock stars with groupies since all the young people wanted to hang out with these grandparents that loved Jesus. My problem was I loved our people so much that if I got deeply involved in the pain of too many people's lives, it emotionally killed me, and I needed to do less counseling.

pages 156-157
Pastor Bent has launched a number of care and recovery groups for such things as sexual abuse, sexual addiction, and alcoholism. He is also training new elders to help shoulder this burden with him. Among them is Phil, who was the first father to show up in our church when we had less than forty people and who has risen up to become a pastor


In other words, if Driscoll recruited someone into leadership it would make his own spiritual discernment look really, really poor to say they weren't a Christian at all.  Let's also keep in mind that if Meyer took over Mark Driscoll's counseling load as far back as 2002 then the stories Mark Driscoll was regaling pastors with in early 2008 may have dated as far back as half a decade or more.  We can't be sure how involved Driscoll remained in pastoral counseling up through 2008 but it would seem by Mark Driscoll's own account he'd significantly scaled back his counseling of members as far back as 12 years ago and he designated Bent Meyer to take his place. 

2-5-2008 spiritual warfare Part 3 part 2: laying out the basics of the trial process "tell me everything ... "

http://castroller.com/podcasts/MarsHillChurch3/3711825
Spiritual Warfare
February 5, 2008
Pastor Mark Driscoll
Christus Victor (Part 3)


10:02
What I do then in explaining this to them, I tell them, "Look, if you wanna know more about the Bible and what it says about Satan and demons here's what the Bible says."  I give them a list. I send this to them as a pdf. I go from Genesis to Revelation. I just give them all the chapters in the Bible that talk about Satan and demons and all the verses. And some folks who are neatniks they'll just go through the Bible and highlight all the verses and read it for themselves. That's totally fine. I also give them a summary of places they can read if they want to get the highlights.


The first thing I do is "Tell me everything and read your Bible so you have an understanding of what we're talking about."

Moving on to page 8, here's what I do then. First, I share the Gospel with them and make sure they're a Christian. Do you love Jesus? Have you repented of your sin? Do you know, do you understand that Jesus' death was in your place for your sin? Do you have personal faith in the Lord Jesus alone?  I make sure they're a Christian. I don't assume anything. I don't care if they're a member of the church, I don't care if they're a DEACON in the church. I wanna make sure they're a Christian and sometimes I've been surprised. Some people, they don't really love Jesus. They don't really know him. So, first things first, they gotta be a Christian and you share the Gospel.

Second thing, I explain the world, the flesh, and the devil, kinda like I did with you. You got three ways the enemy comes at you--the world (temptation externally), the flesh (sinful response internally), before we talk about the devil let's talk about your personal sin, let's talk about your own repentance, your own moral responsibility.  Where has your flesh fed the world? Where have you sinned against God? What things do you need to repent of? What changes do you need to make? Let's not blame everything on the devil like Eve did in Genesis. Right? Her answer was "the devil made me do it." Lots of people love to use the devil as their escape clause and I won't let `em. I'll talk about footholds and handholds again, you know, when you sin and you don't repent and you're living in sin and rebelling and believing lies and accusations you're giving your enemy footholds, he's making more ground.

Then I explain our trial. I take them to 1 John 6, 4 rather. I just read these to you and you can take these home with you. It says, "Beloved, do not believe every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they are from God." It goes on and on and on that the real spirits confess that Jesus Christ is God and he's the Lord. The first thing is we need to test the spirits. What we're going to talk about is a counseling session that tests the spirits.

Second thing, I read Ephesians 6. I say, "Well, here's how we're gonna test the spirits, we're gonna do the stuff that Ephesians 6 speaks of." Got a brand new Bible here. Ephesians 6 he says, beginning in verse 10:

Finally, be strong in the Lord and the strength of his might. Put on the whole armor of God that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil. (spiritual warfare).  For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood but against the rulers, authorities and cosmic powers of this present darkness, (that is Satan and demons) against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. Therefore take up the whole armor of God that you may withstand the evil day and having done all, stand firm. Stand, therefore, having fastened on the belt of truth, the breastplate of righteousness, as shoes for your feet having on the readiness given by the gospel of peace. In all circumstances take up the shield of faith with which you can extinguish all the flaming darts of the evil one. (that may include vain regrets, accusations, condemnations, fiery darts) Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the spirit which is the word of God, praying at all times in the spirit with all prayers and supplication. To that end keep alert (I'll come back to that, make note of that) with all perserverance making supplication and prayer for the saints.

See, first we're gonna need to do a trial to test the spirits. How're we gonna do that? Here's what we're gonna do--truth and scripture, faith (trust in Jesus), prayer, repentance of sin, nothing freaky, nothing crazy, no Exorcist, no Rosemary's Baby, none of that. The same stuff we use for Christian life and spiritual warfare and all its kinds and sources. Now what I would say as well, in Ephesians 6, it's important to note that he is writing to a church and too often, in the modern era, all application of scripture is almost exclusively individual. It's corporate here. The CHURCH needs to be praying, reading its Bible, demonstrating faith. It's an issue of being part of a loving, spiritual community, not just going it alone dressed up like the soldier that all the kids saw in elementary school.

14:38
1 Peter 5:8
Be self-controlled and alert--


This is important because when you're dealing with someone there are two ways of dealing with someone who has demonic issues. One is to speak directly to the demon. If you do the demon takes over the person. This is where their eyes roll back in their head, this is where their voice changes, this is where they demonstrate supernatural strength, this is where things go nuts. Don't ever do that. People need to be self-controlled and alert. You don't allow a demon to take over a person. You don't speak directly to a demon. I'll explain that a little more fully as we go.  There's two ways to do that kind of demonic investigation and spiritual warfare trial.

In any good trial you need ground rules, a bailiff to enforce them, bring in the person, get the truth, sentence them, condemn them, that's all we're talking about. It's a trial. It's a trial and the worst thing you can do is let a demon take over a person. I've seen it on a few occasions. I've seen people try and kill themselves, they were just sitting my office just talking. [makes a "whif" sound] voice changes, appearance changes, bodily posture changes.  I've seen little, tiny women demonstrate full man masculine voices, superhuman strength. I've seen things levitate in my office. Crazy stuff. You don't want that and I'll tell you that right now.

I've seen people try to kill themselves. I had one gal (I've had witnesses for all of this, you NEVER do this alone, you have a godly witness there) I was just sitting there talking to this gal and I said, "Tell me about your past and life and tell me your story." And immediately her voice changes and she grabs herself by the throat and is choking herself. And we're just sitting in my office. Turning blue, could've killed herself. There was a friend of mine there with me (this was early on in the church) you know, he's a new Christian, he looks and me and he's like, "What do I do?" What do 'I' do?  I don't know what to do here. This is--I didn't know what I was doing.  You just start talking to a demon and next thing you know they start taking over a person and that's not what you want. But that's the crazy stuff that gets on television.

16:53
Some of you guys, you may have seen a guy, Bob Larson is his name, and he does this kinda crazy weird stuff on TV where people, if it's true (who knows it is), they appear to manifest full demonic control and people show up and they're, "Oh, that's amazing. That's cool."  No, no, no  Satan's proud. He's arrogant. He loves to show off. He loves to be demonstrating power. Don't let him do that. I don't speak directly to the demon. I'll explain what I do do in a moment. I speak to the person and then the demon answers them. In that way it's more like a translator. right? If someone, let's say they're someone who didn't speak in a language that I knew, and there was somebody there who was bilingual, I would have that person speak to the translator and then tell me. 


That's how we do it. I'll ask the person, I'll ask questions, they'll get it cuz it's a trial, they'll get an answer, they'll hear it or see it, and then they'll tell me. The other way is to speak directly to the demon but the only way the demon can speak back to me, then, is to take over and control that person's whole body and I don't want that to happen. I want them to be self controlled [and] alert. I want them to know what the enemy's been doing. I want them to be aware. And if they're already hearing vain regrets, accusations, lies, voices [then] the enemy's talking to them all the time anyways so they just need to learn to interpret that that's not the voice of the Lord and then communicate that to me.

2-5-2008 spiritual warfare Part 3 part 1 commentary 3: if a Christian can be demonized could Driscoll have been (or be) a prime candidate for one of his own demon trials?

What is fascinating about the demon trial material is that it needs to be heard and understood in light of the earlier content directed explicitly at the leaders.  Driscoll had laid out that a great threat to the welfare of Mars Hill would be the wolves within the leadership, that there was a demonic lie out there about the executive elders not really loving Mars Hill and about how to approach the ordinary demonic.

For all the lengths to which Driscoll went in describing how he conducted demon trials and investigations it's interesting that there's never been any indication whether he or anyone close to him conducted the same kind of demon trial/investigation on Mark Driscoll himself.  Why rule it out?

After all, Driscoll explained over the years stories about physical attacks and peril.  Yet if we take Driscoll's inventory of reasons professing Christians could open themselves up to demonization the litany seems to span sins.  I.e. you have to sin in certain ways enough to end up on demonic radar or ... well ... Driscoll never really spells out a case for why Christians might face demonic attacks because they're doing such amazing kingdom work Satan opposes them.  He had at the start of the session, after all, dismissed the idea that Satan himself  was going to bother with anyone below the level of, say, Billy Graham.  So this would imply, by process of elimination, that the normal ways Christians, even leaders of Christians, might open themselves up to demonization would be sinful patterns, correct?

What kinds of sinful patterns were in the ordinary demonic?

2-5-2008 spiritual warfare Part 2 part 2: the start of the "ordinary demonic", not enough sex within marriage

As we've noted before, the problem with "not enough sex in marriage" is that whoever wants sex the most would, by default, get to define how much is not enough. 

Then there's bitterness, which is an ordinary demonic foothold.  Given how bitter Driscoll said he was over the lack of sex (itself the first of the ordinary demonic things), shouldn't there be some question as to whether ten years of Mark resenting his wife over the lack of sex had crossed from ordinary demonic to extraordinary demonic?  What if Driscoll's resentment was so significant it opened him up to physical attacks from demons, at least if we allow Driscoll to be measured by taking his doctrinal positions seriously and as applicable to his own life?  What is more, how on earth did all the elders to whom Driscoll kept saying he was accountable never pick up that this was some kind of recurring issue in the Driscoll marriage?  For that matter, while Mark Driscoll talked about how in the past he'd made a god of sex the implied past tense nature of his idolatry of sex presumes a change that has never been proven to have taken place.  Let's keep in mind that by Mark Driscoll's own account the cure for his mood swings and depression was more frequent sex.  Not repenting of sin, not lifestyle change, not change in diet, not changes in exercise, more sex (though all those variables  must have played some role if Driscoll's depression lifted).

Even if we were to take everything Driscoll says in part 1 of this Part 3 of spiritual warfare at face value, the light Real Marriage retroactively shone on the life and times of Mark Driscoll makes it hard to avoid the question of whether Mark Driscoll himself as been the subject of a demonic inventory or investigation or a demon trial.  Because it sure seemed with the release of the 2012 book we were getting a story that, if this was Mark Driscoll assessing some other guy's story, might be a candidate for a demon trial.  It's at least something to consider. 

Of course we'll have to get to the demonic inventory in a bit and it is in that section that the semi-notorious "I see things" was said.  Too many bloggers have tried to analyze this outside of the vastly larger context of the 2008 spiritual warfare session as a whole.  They generally don't know it was teaching giving a few months after the controversial firings of Petry and Meyer or the controversial changes in bylaws and amid questions about real estate acquisitions and fiscal management.  By February 2008 Driscoll had basically laid down a law that presumed that expressing doubts about the love of the executives for the church was demonic yet for a decade earlier, perhaps, Driscoll himself may have been a candidate for one of his own demon trials because of the possibly ten years of not-enough-sex and his bitterness.  Assuming all the demonic encounters he's described should even be taken at face value (and there's at least some ground to be cautious in a couple of cases), who's to say Driscoll hadn't opened himself up to demonic attacks because of his resentment and bitterness?  The Driscolls said they didn't feel they could tell anybody and yet ... we'll see what Driscoll said by way of "tell me everything" shortly.